Dear all:

I have been thinking about making a simple cyser (3 qts cider and ~3 lb.
dark wildflower honey) with a SG of probably not more than 1.120. I am
interested in this ending up somewhat sweet (maybe medium sweet). My local
brew supply has a packet of Wyeast Sweet Mead Yeast (#3184?). Any
opinions on this? Anybody out there have any experience with this one?
Things I should look out for, or special precautions? Or am I better off
going with an ale yeast?

TIA,

• Andrew

> I've tried a few different methods of making fruit meads,
> but haven't been entirely satisfied with any of them.

This might be a case of worrying too much…

> I've put the fruit in a fine nylon bag and steeped it
> in hot must to sterilize it, then (by hand) squeezed the
> juice from it. This deals with sterilizing the fruit, and
> leaves you with an easy-to-syphon mead. Bad parts are that
> the fruit is present during the primary ferment, and I've
> heard it said that the primary ferment will carry away a lot
> of the aromatic fruit flavors with all of the CO2 being vented.

I've also "heard it said" that this is a concern, but I've been doing it
that way (fruit in primary) for 15 years and haven't managed to find the
alleged problem. (I grant that I haven't done careful A-B tests, but I've
had folks stick their noses in my melomels and then step back in surprise
at the fruit character.) I think this is a point where we need to avoid
basic intuition and "conventional wisdom".

> Also, it seems that much of the fruit flavor never gets a chance
> to leech out into the mead due to the short exposure.

How short?
Put the fruit in at the start, leave it there for a few days, then pull it
out. Press it if possible (or squeeze it as you do) and that should be
fine. Part of the extraction process–which I conjecture without a shred
of proof! but with some observation–is that a vigorous primary fermenta-
tion breaks down the fruit.

> I've dumped the fruit into a fermentation bucket
> along with fermenting mead, but I almost contaminated the
> batch. It's easier to get the fruit out this way, and
> you get a prolonged soak of the fruit in the mead. However,
> the sanitation concerns are greater, dipping a strainer in
> to get the fruit out stirs things up and aerates, and leaving
> the fruit in while you siphon leads to a difficult siphon.

1. It's not that hard to sanitize a strainer.
2. How many people have *really* contaminated a mead? One of the things

I keep noticing over the years is the absence of discussion of contami-
nated mead…compared to beer it just doesn't happen. I'm not saying
it's impossible, only that it's awfully rare.

3. Minor aeration isn't a problem if the mead is still fermenting fairly

vigorously. Consider that what you're likely doing (again, if it's
still pretty busy) is more like stirring CO2 out of solution as you dip
and strain. Any sort of active fermentation has a solution saturated
with CO2.

> I've dumped the fruit into a glass carboy along with fermenting
> mead. Nice long soak of the fruit in the mead. But straining
> is not an option, and the siphoning was a nightmare…

I can only imagine…and if you'd tried that with a fruit that tends to
break down into stringy pulp, we'd be reading about you in the news…
"Local mead-maker goes berserk; neighborhood sprayed with fermenting
apricot; details at 10…":-)

Also, by doing this you encounter some risk of bitterness from the
prolonged contact with fruit.

> A few ideas I've picked up off the net lately are putting
> a campden tablet in the fruit (w/ enough liquid to dissolve); even
> if you don't use them in your meads, this seems like a good way
> to sterilize fruit if you're not going to heat-treat it…

Sure, but as I note above, are you really exposed to that much of a
sanitation problem?

>…Also, I'll probably try pectic enzyme to clear some of the gunk…

That's only likely to help if you've (over)heated the fruit. There's no
problem with doing this; pectinase is not bad stuff. Just realize that
unless you've created the specific problem, it won't help. Pectinase won't
clear "gunk" (solids); it will only clear the haze from set pectin.

If you have "gunk" as in excessive fruit pulp, about the best help is
repeated careful rackings.

> One other thought is that I'll go to a 7 gallon carboy if I'm going
> to float fruit in the fermenting stuff, since it displaces and soaks
> up a fair amount of liquid. I only got a 3 gallon yield out of the
> strawberry batch I spoke about above, from a full 5 gallon carboy
> with fruit in it.

Do you have any way to press the fruit?

If I'm using a lot of fruit, I make up a batch to perhaps 6 gallons in the
primary (bucket), then skim the fruit and press the liquid, which I return
to the primary, then rack after a few more days. I use a small fruit press
for this because I have it (for various purposes including this one), but I
would imagine you could make do with a mesh bag and squeezing or some other
approaches.

• —

Dick Dunn rcd@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA

…Mr. Natural says, "Use the right tool for the job."

> I tried a test-run over the last coupla months (started in Jan), adding
> CaCO3 to a basic mead recipe I've used before to see if it would hasten
> the fermentation. It seemed to dramtically reduce the primary
> fermentation time, but I still have a "off", "chalky",
> reminds-me-smell-wise-of-sunburn-lotion taste to the plain, raspberry,
> and sweet derivatives I made back in January.
>
> any ideas?

Don't use calcium carbonate. Be patient instead.
Carl

3347 Eau de Vie – (Water of Life)
A very good choice for alcohol tolerance and stuck fermentations. Produces a
very clean dry profile, low ester and other volatile aromatics. 21% alcohol
tolerance. Cordials, Grappa, Barley Wine, Eau de Vie, Single Malts.

I personally don't have any experience with it yet, although I just bought a
pack of it and I plan to make a high-powered mead/cordial with it.

Tim Green

> From: Jim Sims <jim.sims@game.net>

> > CaCO3 to a basic mead recipe I've used before to see if it would hasten
> the fermentation.

I'd just as soon *NOT* hurry it up, though I do use a clarifier.
Then again, I have a half-dozen or so meads in various stages of completion,
so I don't really need to try and ferment one quickly. I realize you said
this was an exp. but I'd say let it go naturally

> Subject: Fermenting with fruit
> From: Jeremy York <jeremy@ThemeMedia.com>
> Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 18:03:57 -0700
>
> I've tried a few different methods of making fruit meads,
> but haven't been entirely satisfied with any of them.
>
Jeremy I use a Fine nylon Bags in an oppen primary fermenter and make 2 of 3
seperate additions of fruit over 1 to 3 weeks. I think this alowes for less
co2 scrubing of fruit aromas but still keeps the contact time of any portion
of my fruit with the must at 1 week.
Dan

I know the oils in coffee beans will interfere with head retention in
beer, but in a still mead this isn't an issue. Has anyone tried to
make a coffee mead?

Thanks,
Eric.Ewing@gsbsc.gensig.com

Jeremy writes:

>I've tried a few different methods of making fruit meads,
>but haven't been entirely satisfied with any of them.
>
>I've put the fruit in a fine nylon bag and steeped it
>in hot must to sterilize it, then (by hand) squeezed the
>juice from it.

<snip>
>I've dumped the fruit into a fermentation bucket
>along with fermenting mead, but I almost contaminated the
>batch. It's easier to get the fruit out this way, and
>you get a prolonged soak of the fruit in the mead. However,
>the sanitation concerns are greater, dipping a strainer in
>to get the fruit out stirs things up and aerates, and leaving
>the fruit in while you siphon leads to a difficult siphon.
>
>I've dumped the fruit into a glass carboy along with fermenting
>mead. Nice long soak of the fruit in the mead. But straining
>is not an option, and the siphoning was a nightmare. Even with
>a chore-boy tied to the end of the racking cane, I was still getting
>completely loaded up with gunk and having to restart the siphon
>numerous times, and eventually gave up and dumped it through a

>strainer into a bucket (better than pitching it).

<snip>

Here's what I've found to be the easiest method. Take one of those huge
nylon sacks that are used sometimes for all grain beers (they call em
sparge sacks); they hold about 5 gallons or more. Get yourself a 6 gallon
plastic fermentor with a spigot on the bottom. Most homebrew stores sell
them as bottling buckets–in fact, when it doesn't have mead in it, that's
what I use mine for. Cut a small hole in the lid that will fit a small
stopper (this will be for the airlock). Prepare your fruit and then put in
bag and tie the top shut. If you are going to heat pasteurize the must,
pour the hot must on top of the fruit in the bucket and let sit. Once
sanitized, drop a wort chiller (pre-sanitized) into the bucket until
pitching temp is reached. If you are going to sulfite, do what you normally
do.

Ferment as normal. After 10 or so days, prepare a clean carboy and attach a
sanitized hose to the spigot. Run off your must into the carboy through the
spigot. Voila! No muss, no fuss and no siphoning headaches. This will
maximize your yield and is quick and efficient. I've made a dozen melomels
this way and it works great.

As for whether putting fruit into the primary purges all the volatiles from
the fruit…..You'll have to be your own judge. Many comments that I've
seen (expecially on the Cider Digest) seem to indicate that there is no
actual aroma left from the fruit anyhow, just fermentation byproducts that
mimic the fruit. You could easily rack your must out of the primary into
the bucket with the fruit prepared as above and it would work just as well,
so try that if that makes you feel better.

Me? I put the fruit in the primary….always.

Charles

I have been an active proponent on this digest of the use of CaCO3 for Ph
control to speed up ferments, and have been bit badly by it. I quote from
Dan McConnell and Ken Schramm's excellent Zymurgy article (sorry, don't
have the cite handy).

"Care must be exercised because all of these salts can add a bitter-salty
flavor if overused, so a minimum of these compounds is recommended."

I made a wonderful (or so I thought) show mead that had great honey aroma,
pale golden yellow, and was dry, but still had honey flavor. I was letting
it just sit for a while, but gave a bottle to someone who had never tasted
mead before. They reported back that it tasted "bitter". I tasted it, and
there is a subtle bitter taste. And it's getting worse. Prior to that I
had received another report that a show mead I had made had a slight bitter
end taste.

Currently I'm rethinking my use of CaCO3 for Ph control, and also the use
of "chemical" nutrients.

To test this, in the middle of April I made a 5-gallon show mead with
honey, water, yeast (Lalvin K1 V1116), and oxygen, no nutrients. OG was
1.122. Yesterday the IG was 1.015. At the same time I also made a 6-gallon
OJ mead with OJ concentrate, honey, yeast (2 packs Red Star Champagne), no
nutrients. The OG was a whopping 1.150. Yesterday the IG was 1.020. I did
not add any CaCO3 to either one. Both are finished and starting to clear.

I'm beginning to become convinced that the most important factor for
relatively quick ferments is 1) pitch a large amount of yeast, or 2) pitch
a normal amount of yeast and oxygenate for further yeast growth.

Chuck

You are quite correct, sorbate will not stop an active fermentation.
It will only prevent a refermentation from starting. As for getting
higher gravity meads to ferment dry, I would suggest starting out
with a lower gravity and then use syrup feeding to boost the alcohol
once the gravity drops to about 1.010. Small additions of honey
added at this time will boost the alcohol that you can get from your
yeast and be less likely to leave you with something with much, if
any residual sweetness.

If you ar worried about sanitation then yes, you can use sulfites.
What I do in these cases, since I don't like to use sulfites in my
mead if it can be avoided, is to add the amount of sulfite that would
be used in the volume of liquid that will JUST COVER THE FRUIT.
Usually I can cover the fruit for a five gallon batch with no more
than 1 – 1 1/2 gallons of water. That cuts the sulfite use down by
up to 80%. Most of those sulfites will be bound, or blown off by the
escaping CO2 (as you had been worried would happen to the fruit
flavor). If you don't add any more sulfites later you will have very
little to worry about in your mead.

When I make my mango wine I cut the mangoes up into small pieces and
then mash the fruit in the bottom of the bucket. I then cover with
minimal water, sulfite and pectic enzyme (as above). I let this sit
covered for a few days, stirring occaisionally. I then strain out
the fruit, squeeze what juice I can from it, and add this to a carboy
with water and sugar (or honey for a melomel) . I add a healthy
yeast starter at this time to make sure that fermentation begins
promptly and vigorously (this is important). I have made this wine
or melomel several times and have never had an infection problem.
The flavor and the aroma of the mangos are very pronounced using this
method.

Don't even THINK about putting fruit into a carboy with a narrow
neck!

Leo,

I have two points to make. First, and some people out there will
certainly disagree with me, I don't like to boil my honey. What you
can do is boil the water and the pour the boiling water over you
honey and mix it in. This will get the must hot enough for a long
enough period of time to kill off any wild yeasts which are present.
It also avoids any possibility of carmelizing your honey (I did that,
ONCE) or boiling away volitile aroma and flavor elements of the
honey. Second, your yeast starter should be prepared the day before
you plan to pitch it (or at least in the morning for an evening
pitch). That way the yeast has had plenty of time to grow and
multiply prior to pitching. The reason for the starter, in addition
to making sure that your yeast is alive and active, is to give it
time to grow into a larger culture. This helps insure a quick start
to the fermentation of the must and cut down on the chances of
infection.

HTH Wassail!

Marc Shapiro m_shapiro@bigfoot.com

Visit 'The Meadery' at:
http://www.bigfoot.com/~m_shapiro/

"If you drink melomel every day, you will live to be 150 years old,
unless your wife shoots you."

• –Dr. Ferenc Androczi, Winemaker of the Little Hungary Winery

I've had no problems with fruit in bucket (covered with a clean plastic garbage
bag) for the first week or so. I haven't really worried about the loss of
flavours being bubbled off. I am also quite happy to ferment at not too high a
temp and take a little longer if necessary (fruit in autumn, fermentation
occuring as the temperatures start to drop) I wonder if anyone has done any
flavour chemistry on fruit wines in the same way that Andrew Lea has done for
(fermented) cider? Andrew has noted (on Cider Digest) that there are none of the
flavour components of apple juice remaining in (fermented) cider, and I would be
surprised if this wasn't the case for wines/meads made with fruit. As for
removing the fruit, I have usually strained the must slowly and carefully,
either through a strainer or through a piece of muslin (both sterilized in
exceedingly hot water), so as to minimize the amount of air that gets mixed into
it. In the interests of avoiding pectin problems I generally don't overheat the
fruit, but will rinse/wash it thoroughly before squishing (or whatever). With
plums I have washed in hot water with a little sodium carbonate (washing soda)
to help remove the waxy bloom on the outside. I always assume the inside of the
fruit is clean enough. For ease of straining I have usually poured the must
through the strainer into another bucket, squeezed the fruit pulp and siphoned
the clearer must into the glass for secondary fermentation.

Good luck and don't panic – as long as things are kept reasonably clean…

Rod McDonald