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I think common practice is over feeding our little ones!

Squatchy

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Nov 3, 2014
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So I continue to experiment to see how little we actually need to feed our yest to get the job done.
I'm wondering who else is going backwards and what results you are finding and what protocols are you using????

I'm not all in just yet,,,, but,,, I think (at least using mostly "O") that you can use 100 less points and still have great results.

I have been "playin" and have started feeling like I have found something new to me that's is working pretty good and I'm not sure what to think yet.

Are any of you guys "going low" to find the bottom line so to speak?
 

fatbloke

good egg/snappy dresser.....
GotMead Patron
Nope. I use the numbers from Ken Schramms article from the 2005 Zymurgy edition where he explained about how many use too little and the possible downside of that..........

Given that it's very hard to get hold of O and K (or E for that matter) here, I still believe it's very important to "get it right" so as not to stress the yeast any and get best potential for flavour from the honey..........

Or have I missed the point ?
 

Chris_from_Miss

NewBee
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Oct 6, 2015
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I've been using a YAN spreadsheet and plugging in the numbers based on gravity and percentage of YAN in the nutrient I'm using. Since I started doing this, my nutrient amounts have increased and fermentations have been better all around. So I guess I'm going in the opposite direction as you.
 

Stasis

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This is so complex, especially given that just about everything affects how much nitrogen the yeast consume. I can easily imagine cases where yeast are 'overfed' by 100 ppm. How much does nitrogen needs vary depending on yeast strain? How much depending on fermentation temps? Given that fermaid O has no ammonia present (which is toxic to yeast) and that we are aerating the crap out of our musts (unlike what they do in wines), are our yeast able to use nitrogen which was previously inaccessible to them? From Wikipedia:
"well aerated starter cultures that contain must which hasn't had any diammonium phosphate added it to it will usually see some utilization of proline before the anaerobic conditions of fermentation kick in."
Do our musts even contain proline?

I wouldn't be amazed if yeast are being overfed. The problem would be to feed yeast in a way to give consistent and best results, so most people would play it safe. From what I'm reading, it seems yeast will eat most of that extra nutrients anyway. Eventually maybe more tests will be made and we can provide more exact dosages
 

zpeckler

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From what I've read, there's a good chance that we are using more nutrients than the yeast needs. On Reddit there's a user named /u/balathustrius that has looked into this pretty extensively and agrees. His white paper (along with a great YAN calculator) can be found here:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/11pW-dC91OupCYKX-zld73ckg9ximXwxbmpLFOqv6JEk/edit

Ken Schramm agrees with him, FWIW. I'd be interested to hear what his current nutrient practices are. Ken, we need a second edition of "The Compleat Meadmaker!" Balathustrius also talks a fair amount about inorganic vs organic sources of nitrogen, which has been debated elsewhere on Got Mead as well. He does have a Got Mead account, but I don't know what his user name is off the top of my head.

Stasis is right, though. How much nutrients the yeasts need depends in a lot of factors. Still, if they need a lot less YAN than we think they do, that would be practice-changing.

I've wanted to give lower-YAN musts a try for a while, but I've been on a TOSNA kick for my last few batches. Ideally a trial of a series of 1 gallon batches using an identical must and the same yeast strain, but with varying YAN concentrations.
 

Stasis

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Oh but then you'd only prove that less nutrient can be used in that specific situation. One of the problems with these calculators is that they're trying to create a formula while accepting too few variables as input
 

zpeckler

NewBee
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Mar 7, 2014
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Yeah true. It would be only applicable to my specific yeast strain du joir, fermentation temp, pH, etc.

But... science! ;)
 

EJM3

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using the TOSNA protocol we already use the "effectiveness" rather than the actual YAN contribution of:

40g / hl = 400ppm

- the same as -

40g / 100 liters = 400ppm

4g / 10 liters = 400ppm

1g / 1 liter = 100 ppm

1g / 1 Gallon = 26.42ppm

At least according to Lallemand


Whereas the TOSNA protocol states:

1g / 1 Gallon = 50 ppm

Doubling what Lallemand states


But Lallemand is using this in grape must, not honey must. Honey must is devoid of most nutrients, but seems to have plenty of proline. Although the darker honeys tend to have more of almost everything, but still not enough for a good clean ferment.
 

Stasis

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EJM3 that post really confused me. Your calculations are incorrect, but never mind that. 400ppm is just another way of saying 40g/hl. That page isn't talking about ppm YAN, just ppm fermaid O in water
 
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Stasis

Honey Master
Registered Member
Jan 10, 2014
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Btw, The link by zpeckler asks for even more Fermaid O than the TOSNA approach. In the spreadsheet 40 ppm per gram are provided, vs the 50ppm per gram in the TOSNA approach found here http://www.meadmaderight.com/info.html
Something interesting in that spreadsheet is that it gives a warning when entering an all Fermaid O amount. The recommended amount is about half to eliminate the risk of yeasty flavors
 

zpeckler

NewBee
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Mar 7, 2014
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Yeah I noticed that when I first read Balathustrius's paper. Asked about it in a previous post.

http://www.gotmead.com/forum/showerhead.php?t=24820

Trying to compare the "effective" equivalent of organic and inorganic N is kinda apples and oranges. Well, TOSNA seems to work well in most situations, and is seriously more simple than using the calculator to try and to mix Fermaid-O, Fermaid-K, and DAP.
 

Stasis

Honey Master
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Gentlkngt seems to be saying in that thread what I have expressed in this thread here:
"OldSoul had it right when he pointed out that yeasts have differing YAN requirements. Melomel fruits can also add nitrogen. There are several YAN calculators on the web and one purports to give recommend nutrients based on yeast. The next calculator then comes with a completely different number. Manufacturers have some info too. Maybe UC Davis will develop a reliable one someday."
In the end he says that at least the calculators put you in the ballpark. I tend to agree