• PATRONS: Did you know we've a chat function for you now? Look to the bottom of the screen, you can chat, set up rooms, talk to each other individually or in groups! Click 'Chat' at the right side of the chat window to open the chat up.
  • Love Gotmead and want to see it grow? Then consider supporting the site and becoming a Patron! If you're logged in, click on your username to the right of the menu to see how as little as $30/year can get you access to the patron areas and the patron Facebook group and to support Gotmead!
  • We now have a Patron-exclusive Facebook group! Patrons my join at The Gotmead Patron Group. You MUST answer the questions, providing your Patron membership, when you request to join so I can verify your Patron membership. If the questions aren't answered, the request will be turned down.

natural nutrients?

Barrel Char Wood Products

wiltshiremead

NewBee
Registered Member
Jul 28, 2012
34
0
0
Hi,
I've never made mead but I am about to start 1-gallon batch of Orange Mead.
My question is... I want to make it as natural as possible (without adding chemically named yeast nutrients.) I am thinking of not using raisins but adding orange and malt extract for nutrients. Do you think this will do?
 

akueck

Certified Mead Mentor
Certified Mead Mentor
Jun 26, 2006
4,958
11
0
Ithaca, NY
Yep, big can of worms there. Most things out there have chemical names. Calcium sulfate and gypsum are the same thing, even if one sounds like chem lab and the other field geology (or drywall!).

Malt extract will work, though you'll probably need to add at least 30% of the fermentables as malt to get the required nitrogen levels. Orange juice is not a very tasty fermented beverage, it tends to be very phenolic. Apple juice, however, is very tasty and yeast love it. Most of the orange flavor/aroma you will get from the zest.
 

wiltshiremead

NewBee
Registered Member
Jul 28, 2012
34
0
0
Thank you Guinlilly.
I think I'm going to go for boiled bread yeast for nitrogen and coconuts water for potassium or malt extract.

According to this, "one packet of boiled yeast will provide about 50ppm YAN per gallon." And according to this, nitrogen level must be 200ppm to 350ppm depending on the strength so I think I'm going to stagger the pitching.
 

wiltshiremead

NewBee
Registered Member
Jul 28, 2012
34
0
0
Yep, big can of worms there. Most things out there have chemical names. Calcium sulfate and gypsum are the same thing, even if one sounds like chem lab and the other field geology (or drywall!).

Malt extract will work, though you'll probably need to add at least 30% of the fermentables as malt to get the required nitrogen levels. Orange juice is not a very tasty fermented beverage, it tends to be very phenolic. Apple juice, however, is very tasty and yeast love it. Most of the orange flavor/aroma you will get from the zest.
That's interesting about the amount required for malt extract. 30% is quite a lot.

The reason why I am trying to make it as 'natural' (yes, I read all the argument about what is natural definition :) ) is that 400-500 years ago, people didn't use commercially produced DAP etc so I am aiming to do how it was done.
 

Guinlilly

NewBee
Registered Member
Feb 17, 2011
299
3
0
Seaford, DE
The reason why I am trying to make it as 'natural' (yes, I read all the argument about what is natural definition :) ) is that 400-500 years ago, people didn't use commercially produced DAP etc so I am aiming to do how it was done.

Well, to be honest, they didn't use nutrients either. They also used the whole hive- bees and all and drank the mead while it was still fermenting.
 

wiltshiremead

NewBee
Registered Member
Jul 28, 2012
34
0
0
Well, to be honest, they didn't use nutrients either. They also used the whole hive- bees and all and drank the mead while it was still fermenting.
ah, all that wild yeasts and what have you in the bee hive, not D-47 :)
Thanks for the info.
You see a lot of good stuff were born when there was no refridgeration and stuff just left in a normal temperature to 'rot' (or ferment) by accident etc and tasty stuff were born. Nature took care of it.

Right I'm off to boil a sachet of bread yeasts ;D
 

wiltshiremead

NewBee
Registered Member
Jul 28, 2012
34
0
0
This is for 1-gallon (3.78L water + 1585g Clover Honey) recipe

According to the article, PDF attachment I added previously, I need the following nutrients but they don't say how much exactly.

So I am guessing and I will be using 7 sachet (7 x 7g) of boild bread yeast, nutrients contents are:-

Nitrogen (7 x 50ppm = 350ppm aiming S.G 1.115)
Calcium (4.5mg x 7 = 31.5mg)
Iron (1.2mg x 7 = 8.4mg)
Magnesium (6.9mg x 7 = 48.3mg)
Potassium (140mg x 7 = 980mg)
Zinc (0.4mg x 7 = 2.8mg)
Thiamin Vit B1 (0.2mg x 7 = 1.4 mg)
Riboflavin (0.4mg x 7 = 2.8mg)
Niacin (2.8mg x 7 = 19.6mg)
Vit B6 (0.1mg x 7 = 0.7mg)
Pantothenic Acid/Pantothenate/Vit B5 (0.8mg x 7 = 5.6mg) to stop the must from smelling like rotten egg

Vit B12, Copper, Manganese - None, could be problem?

Considering I am adding an orange, do I still need to add lemon to bring the PH down?

I suppose there is some potassium, calcium in the bread yeast, I don't need to add Malt extract now, do I!?
 

akueck

Certified Mead Mentor
Certified Mead Mentor
Jun 26, 2006
4,958
11
0
Ithaca, NY
You don't need to add acid, honey has plenty of its own. Adding lemon juice up front often leads to stalled fermentations because the pH actually gets too low.

I'm surprised your boiled yeast doesn't have B12, usually yeast has a bunch of that. Huh. Metallic ions (other than zinc) are usually only required in trace amounts, they might not be listed for one packet.

IIRC, a beer wort of "standard" gravity around 1.050 has about 400-500 ppm YAN. Thus you need *at least* 30% malt if you want that to be your only nutrient source, and then you're still riding the low end of optimal. If you add other nutrients, you need less malt of course.
 

wiltshiremead

NewBee
Registered Member
Jul 28, 2012
34
0
0
Well, according to the nutritional breakdown in the link I provided, it only has Vitamin B1, 5 & 6 but not 12.

I think I might just stick with boiled bread yeast because if you look at the malt extract nutrient content, it looks like other than Potassium, Calcium and Magnesium, the bread yeast seems to contain superior nutrients.
I can top Potassium, Calcium and Magnesium with coconut water (In 300ml : 670mg, 25mg, 40mg respectively)

100g Malt extract only contains the following. Compare that with bread yeast, it is less nutritional.

Malt extract vs 7 sachets of Bread Yeast
Potassium: (320.0 mg, 140mg)
Calcium: (61.0 mg, 8.4mg)
Magnesium: (72.0 mg, 48.3mg)
Iron: (1.0 mg, 8.4mg)
Zinc: (0.1 mg, 2.8mg)
Nitrogen (0, 350ppm)
Thiamin Vit B1 (0, 1.4 mg)
Riboflavin (0, 2.8mg)
Niacin (0, 19.6mg)
Vit B6 (0, 0.7mg)
Pantothenic Acid/Pantothenate/Vit B5 (0, 5.6mg)

I am also getting confused with 1 gallon (UK/US) amount though.
So far I added 2L of water with 1585g of honey. Which makes it nearly US 1-gallon but should the water be 3.78L ???

When you say 30% of fermentable, you mean 30% of 1-gallon (3.78L) must?

I'm sorry for many questions but I think figures would change depending on what you refer too.
 

akueck

Certified Mead Mentor
Certified Mead Mentor
Jun 26, 2006
4,958
11
0
Ithaca, NY
If you are measuring SG, then it doesn't really matter which unit system you use. Just keep adding honey to water until you get where you want. ;)

UK gallons are a bit bigger, 4.5 L instead of 3.8, I think? Usually the total volume is quoted regardless, so your 1-gallon batch should be less than a gallon of water since honey takes up space too. Sounds like you're fine where you are.

30% of the fermentables just means that if your OG is, say 1.100, that 30% of that came from the malt. So if you added just the malt to the same total volume you'd get 1.030 and just the honey 1.070.

Not sure where your 0 for nitrogen comes in the malt column. Depends on processing, of course, but all-malt wort for making beer has a lot of FAN (free amino nitrogen).
 

wiltshiremead

NewBee
Registered Member
Jul 28, 2012
34
0
0
Thanks akueck.

8 hours in, I can see tiny bubbles rising up ;D
I'm a bit of a dare devil, I used 2 years old D-47 :eek:
I'll feed boild bread yeast again before I go to bed. Gosh, it's like having a baby....can't stop watching the must ;D
 

Undead

NewBee
Registered Member
Apr 27, 2012
23
0
0
Phoenix, AZ
I don't know if you guys are making this harder than it needs to be or if I am just insanely lucky, but I don't use any of that. I throw fruit, possibly grain or oak, honey, and water in with my yeast and turn out some stunning meads. Then again, I use an oz of dried elderberries per gallon for one, 3 lemons and 7 limes for another, and so on. The least I have done is oak chips, sarsaparilla root and vanilla beans. So am I a drunk idiot (I opened a bottle of pumpkin spice mead) or are you guys talking about a traditional mead where it's just water and honey?

Please ignore me if I'm a moron.
 

wiltshiremead

NewBee
Registered Member
Jul 28, 2012
34
0
0
Undead, my question was based on the Orange Mead. This morning, it's bubbling away quite strongly. It smelled a bit like beer last night due to the addition of boild bread yeast but this morning it is smelling more like an orange fizzy drink. Can't wait to drink it, very happy with it so far.
 

Soyala_Amaya

NewBee
Registered Member
Mar 21, 2011
991
6
0
Missouri
So am I a drunk idiot (I opened a bottle of pumpkin spice mead) or are you guys talking about a traditional mead where it's just water and honey?

Please ignore me if I'm a moron.

You're not an idiot Undead. :) What you're reading is someone going out of their way to give their yeast, and thus their mead, the best go of it possible. Yes, you can just toss your yeast and go, but the beasties will have to work harder and longer and will get stressed out. It's the difference between an athlete and a couch potatoe both running a mile. They'll both make it across the finish line, but one will be strong and smiling, the other will be...alive.

When you use a proper SNA schedule, calculate exactly what foods your yeast need, aerate properly, and do all the stuff that is recommened, you produce an athlete mead. It is cleaner, sharper, more crisp and aromatic. When you forgoe that stuff, sure, it can still be drinkable, especially when sweet...but once you've made an athelete you can taste the difference.
 

akueck

Certified Mead Mentor
Certified Mead Mentor
Jun 26, 2006
4,958
11
0
Ithaca, NY
The reason why I am trying to make it as 'natural' (yes, I read all the argument about what is natural definition :) ) is that 400-500 years ago, people didn't use commercially produced DAP etc so I am aiming to do how it was done.

Just popped into my head as a fun piece of trivia. Some old recipes will call for a side of beef, a rooster, or other seemingly out-of-place ingredient to be placed in the must. They didn't have DAP, but they still had sources of amino acids!

Given the crazy people on this board, however, a rooster seems relatively tame. :rolleyes:
 

mccann51

Worker Bee
Registered Member
Nov 8, 2010
637
2
18
Southwestern USA
drank the mead while it was still fermenting.

This is a good point to keep in mind. This, or they waited a long-ass time before they had quaffable beverage.

If you want to make a 'natural' mead, low OG (1.035-1.050) is your friend. I wouldn't go over 1.5 lbs of honey per gallon. It can be drank during the ferment or let to sit for a while and then drank.

I have successfully done a higher gravity 'natural' (ie 'nothing') mead, just water, yeast, and honey. It took forever to ferment, and it was a bit on the sweet side if memory serves (probably hid a lot of faults), but it was drinkable in a drinking-hooch-out-of-a-jug kinda way. I prefer my low OG variants, but both approaches are possible.
 

KJUNRebel

NewBee
Registered Member
Jun 21, 2012
7
0
0
The reason why I am trying to make it as 'natural' (yes, I read all the argument about what is natural definition :) ) is that 400-500 years ago, people didn't use commercially produced DAP etc so I am aiming to do how it was done.

They also didn't use yeasts - boiled or not - since they weren't known about yet. If you are using dead yeasts, then you are "cheating" as much as using purchased "dead" yeast nutrients, right? Just teasing, but this is heading somewhere.

Remember that they weren't using ultrafiltered honey. (This was alluded to in another post within this thread, of course.) They were using crush and strained honey (at least for the wealthy's mead) that was poorly filtered - if at all. It contained a LOT of suspended pollen. There is your nutrient source!

If you want to try "natural" - by whatever definition - why not add a couple teaspoons of pollen to the must?
KJ
 
Barrel Char Wood Products

Viking Brew Vessels - Authentic Drinking Horns