2 batches, one clears the other doesn't

[ash]

hi, I'm Wouter. New here. You guys will have to excuse my crappy English since I'm from Belgium and thus have Dutch as native language

I have 2 different batches af mead. Both are made with bakery honey and pieces of apple. One of them was pasturised, made with a yeast starter and goes as expected. They are now fermenting since 9 september, about 3 and a half months now.

The other one does not. It woun't clear and the water in the airlock keeps on pulling back towards the carboy. When I take the carboy and stir it a bit, the pressure inside the carboy builds up again and even bubbles a lite further.

It was made by warming up water and mixing it with honey. When temperature was safe, I added clover, cinamon and apple just like the other one, the only difference is that the other one was pasturised at this point, put it in a 15 L (4 galons?) carboy and airlocked it. At first all went as expected but now it acts as discribed above. I was told not to panic but since the other one is already clear at this point I tought to ask you guys for some advice.

thanx !

 

[afdoty]

hi, I'm Wouter. New here. You guys will have to excuse my crappy English since I'm from Belgium and thus have Dutch as native language

I have 2 different batches af mead. Both are made with bakery honey and pieces of apple. One of them was pasturised, made with a yeast starter and goes as expected. They are now fermenting since 9 september, about 3 and a half months now.

The other one does not. It woun't clear and the water in the airlock keeps on pulling back towards the carboy. When I take the carboy and stir it a bit, the pressure inside the carboy builds up again and even bubbles a lite further.

It was made by warming up water and mixing it with honey. When temperature was safe, I added clover, cinamon and apple just like the other one, the only difference is that the other one was pasturised at this point, put it in a 15 L (4 galons?) carboy and airlocked it. At first all went as expected but now it acts as discribed above. I was told not to panic but since the other one is already clear at this point I tought to ask you guys for some advice.

thanx !

Good Morning Wouter and welcome to GotMead. It's kind of hard to figure what's going on without more info....Please post your exact recipes including amounts of each ingredient, type of yeast and amount, fermentation management (aeration, nutrient, oak, etc.), measurments taken (pH, sg/brix, ambient and must temperature), and any other modifications made to the must during fermentation or aging.

Without the above information we are just guessing about what your issue may be.

Also, if you haven't already done so, read through the NewBee Guide. There's tons of great info in there.

 

[ash]

6 L honey per 15 L batch, just tossed in some cinamon, some clover and half an apple cut into small pieces). I put the rehydrated yeast in that (Vinoferm, Bioferm Blanc : saccharomyces cérevisiae ellipsoidus 'Epernay'), a bit of yeast nutricion and let it sit in a carboy with airlock.

At first all went normally the first 3 months but it doesn't clear like the other batch and fermentation seems to come to a complete halt every couple of days until I move the carboy around a bit.
There's no sign of infection.

I have no instruments to take readings.

I hope to have given all the needed info.

 

[Medsen Fey]

It will help us if you can get a hydrometer and take a reading. It seems this batch started with a very large amount of honey (estimated starting gravity around 1.170) which makes for a very difficult fermentation. If you did not use any nutrients, it would give a very long, slow fermentation. It may not be clear because it may not be finished fermenting.

Following the gravity to see if it continues to slowly drop over a few weeks will tell you if the fermentation is continuing.

A hydrometer is inexpensive, and will really help you here.

I urge you to be very careful with these meads. Please read about stabilizing meads using sorbate and sulfite before you bottle either one of these batches. The meads you have made will be at risk for refermentation in the bottles (with possible exploding bottles) if they are not stabilized.

And let me not forget,
Welcome to GotMead!

 

[TheRabidKumquat]

I thought I'd read somewhere in one of the threads recently discussing pasteurized vs. non-pasteurized about the clearing time. Seemed the pasteurized cleared sooner. I'm trying to find that thread, but not having luck at the moment.

Since the batches are only a few months old, it's pretty normal if they aren't clear yet.

When you say that fermentation starts back up on the unclear mead after stirring it around, do you mean that the airlock starts bubbling again? But soon after airlock activity ceases?
It could be that the fermentation is done, and the bubbles are just CO2 being released from the mead

 

[ash]

I mean that the water starts moving back towards the carboy, so it could mean that the fermentation has stopped. If I stir it up a little, the water moves towards the outside of the airlock, sometimes even bubbling a bit again.

I think the best thing to do is buy a hygrometer and an alcohol tester. The reading on the first one may tell what's happening, but I wouldn't know how to interpret it .
If fermentation has stopped and alcohol level is acceptable I need a way to clear it before I cabn bottle. How I have to stabilize the mead I will figure out later.
Why would this particular mead need stabilisation as opposed to an other kind of mead?

 

[Medsen Fey]

I think the best thing to do is buy a hygrometer and an alcohol tester. The reading on the first one may tell what's happening, but I wouldn't know how to interpret it .

Why would this particular mead need stabilisation as opposed to an other kind of mead?

Make sure to get a hydrometer not a hygrometer (that measures humidity in the air). To read one, check appendix 9 of the NewBee guide. The rest of the NewBee guide is also recommended reading.

I'm not sure what your alcohol tester is, but if it is a vinometer, they don't give accurate readings with a sweet wine/mead so you may not need to spend the money on one.

A sweet mead that may not have reached the alcohol tolerance of the yeast is much more likely to experience refermentation than a dry mead, or one where the alcohol has exceeded the yeast's tolerance. Since you don't really know where your alcohol level is, you'll be safer to to stabilize it.

 

[akueck]

I thought I'd read somewhere in one of the threads recently discussing pasteurized vs. non-pasteurized about the clearing time. Seemed the pasteurized cleared sooner. I'm trying to find that thread, but not having luck at the moment.

It seems that this is generally true--heated musts clear faster--but it might not be the whole story. If both meads are finished fermenting, that difference could explain the clarity disparity.

 

[ash]

thanx people !

I will check for the hydrometerthingie and let you know its reading, the well see from there.

greetz

 

[ash]

hydrometer VINOFERM with 3 scales

The ideal hydrometer for all wine- and beermakers. With 3 coloured scales (density, sugar content, potential alcohol degree) and extended instructions.




RANGE :

* 0.990 - 1.170 S.G.
* 0 - 360 g/l sugar
* 0 - 20°vol.% pot. alcoholcontent

Large accurate model : length : 26 cm, needs a 250 ml measuring cylinder.

found on: http://www.brouwland.com


thats what I need isn't it ?

 

[Medsen Fey]

yep - it's a beauty. A mazer's best friend! ;D

 

[afdoty]

Might I suggest getting two.........You'll have a spare if (when) it breaks.

 

[ash]

Hi, I've got readings but do not quite know how to interpret for sure.

For startes, I've letf the clearing one alone, since there's nothing indicating that there might be anything wrong there.


The batch that doesn't clear:

was made 09/09/09
Don't have readings before fermentation.

density: 1020
sugar: 50
pot. alcohol: 3

What does that tell us?

I've tasted it and it does not taste that wel. It has a sweetisch smeel to it and tastes sweet in the beginning, but then there's an aftertaste of wich I can not determine if it's sour or cloves.

 

[wayneb]

Hi, Wouter! Let me take a shot at your questions.

First, on your hydrometer the only reading that can be used without corrections, after fermentation has begun, is the specific gravity. Both the sugar and potential alcohol scales are only calibrated to make sense before any sugars have been converted to alcohol.

So, from your reading, the current specific gravity of your batch is 1.020 (sometimes written as 1020, or 1,020, depending on what part of the world you're working in!) This is a reading corresponding to a mead that has enough sugar left over to be classified as sweet, but not necessarily dessert sweet. From my calculations based on your ealier comments (6 L of honey into a 15 L batch), your starting specific gravity was rather high; as Medsen Fey noted, it is something like 1.165 to 1.170. It is no wonder that you had trouble sustaining fermentation without stirring, given how honey-rich this batch was! Based on your current gravity reading, the ethanol concentration in this batch is nearly 20% ABV!

Did you really mean 6L of honey? Or was it 6 Kg? ;D

Anyway, a mead this strong (assuming the 6L is correct) will take a very long time to mellow out - 3 months is only the beginning. You may not see final clearing for another 6 to 9 months, and flavors may not smooth out for another year or longer after that.

There is no need to be concerned at this time - but you are likely in for a very long wait until this one is drinkable.

 

[ash]

thanx, I was afraid there was something horribly wrong. (It might be 6 Kg iso L btw, thus 4,3 Liter of honey and maybe 14 Liter batch iso 15) Does that affect the reading interpretion? And how?

Do I have any idea of knowing how much alcohol it will hold?

I had friends of mine taste it and apperantly it does not taste as bad as I tought

So it could be normal that it needs longer than the pasturised batch wich is already almost completely clear with the same recepie (exept pasturising ofcourse)

To take readings the carboy was opened and air got in, now the water in the airlock is pushed towards the outside again.

And the last question for now: is it normal that the water in the airlock gets sucked towards the carboy long before the batch has cleared ?

I have not racked into a different carboy and just let the dead yeast and stuff sink to the bottom. There are also some pieces of apple floeating in the batch.

I don't quite store it in a steady temperature. During the day when i'm at work its about 10 deg. celcius here and during the evening its around 18 deg. celcius.

Sory for all the (maybe uneducated) questions, I am fairly pasionate about this but a greenhorn none the less.

 

[wayneb]

4.3 (or 4,3 in customary European notation) makes much more sense than 6 L. That would result in a maximum alcohol level on the order of 14.25% ABV. If your mead finishes completely dry (with a hydrometer reading of less than 1.000), you'll have that much alcohol.

It will still take a while to age, so your friends are basically correct - there is probably nothing wrong at this time.

It is normal for the airlock to see negative pressure (i.e. the liquid gets pulled back toward the carboy end) when fermentation has stopped, so no more CO2 is being generated, and then the must cools off. Colder must and the headspace above it will cause the gas in that headspace to drop in pressure which then sucks back some of the airlock liquid. That is normal, and it suggests that your fermentation has stalled, or has stopped completely.

The most reliable way to monitor fermentation is to take periodic specific gravity measurements, since airlock bubbles are (for a number of reasons) not a very accurate gauge of activity.

Since we do not know the "sur lie" characteristics of your yeast, once you are sure that fermentation has stopped (a good indicator is a steady SG reading from your hydrometer for several times over a couple of weeks), you should rack over to another container for aging, and leave the lees behind.

 

[saur0n]

Hey Wouter,

I have had some troubles with a mead that wouldn't clear. What I did is stabilize it to prevent further fermentation (There were no more bubbles coming up, but I like being safe instead of sorry when it comes to bottle grenades). After that I tossed in some bentonite (2 grams per liter, hydrated for 24 hrs) and after 5-ish days my mead was all cleared up. (You have to be absolutely sure that fermentation has halted when you do this, otherwise your yeast will continue bubbling on the bottom of the carboy and cloud up your mead again)

You should find the stabilizing agent and the bentonite in your local brewing store (Brouwland I assume? ;D) for next to nothing.

<dutch mode>
Waar in België woon je ergens?
</dutch mode>

Gert

 

[ash]

Hey Wouter,

I have had some troubles with a mead that wouldn't clear. What I did is stabilize it to prevent further fermentation (There were no more bubbles coming up, but I like being safe instead of sorry when it comes to bottle grenades). After that I tossed in some bentonite (2 grams per liter, hydrated for 24 hrs) and after 5-ish days my mead was all cleared up. (You have to be absolutely sure that fermentation has halted when you do this, otherwise your yeast will continue bubbling on the bottom of the carboy and cloud up your mead again)

You should find the stabilizing agent and the bentonite in your local brewing store (Brouwland I assume? ;D) for next to nothing.

<dutch mode>
Waar in België woon je ergens?
</dutch mode>

Gert

I'm from Ghent.

I will leave the mead for now, and take weekly readings on the Hydrometer. When I'm sure it stopped fermenting I will rack it into another container for bulk aging (may be needed since now I don't like the taste very much ).
I'll see if it clears up, like people hinted above: its prolly just a waiting game

Anyone has a clue on how far the readings might drop and how much alcohol that leaves me ? i'm not an alcohol-freak, but I would like to know what I'm drinking

 

[wayneb]

It is difficult to predict in advance, but once you see what the true final gravity of the mead is, we can calculate an estimate of the ethanol concentration that should be pretty close, based on average water-content honey and your initial amounts of all the ingredients. The apples introduce a little uncertainty but in this batch I think that would be negligible.

 

[ash]

can mead actually go bad if kept to long? Can it go bad if it has low alcohol content?