Southpaw?

[AToE]

Holy smokes, that's going to take me a while to dig through! (One thing that jumped out though, fish ain't vegitarian, that be meat! Certainly not even close to vegan (no animal products at all)).

Your figures for how much protien a person needs sound extremely high, most nutritionists I've read/talked to recommend for me (about 190lbs) to get around 75-100g of protien per day, which is easy to do on beans and rice!

As for tofu/soy products being harmful - I've read a few things, it's all in dispute. I don't think we'll have any clear answers for a while (though I won't rule it out, soy is poisonous when raw, so it's not out of the question).

Let me dig through the rest of that and do some more research, I don't want to say things I haven't got evidence for! ;D

 

[wildoates]

Biologically humans are omnivores--we have omnivore teeth, we have omnivore digestive tracts, we best get our required nutrients from a varied diet of plants and animals. Sure, we can get by eating only plants, people in famine situations do it out of necessity, but physiologically speaking it is not optimum. Veggit or vegan, you have to be much more careful about your diet than the person who eats meat/dairy couple of times a week or more. Personally I'm waaay to lazy to bother, plus I don't like most vegetables.

 

[AToE]

I think the problem there is you're comparing a vegitarian/vegan to a person with a proper diet that contains meat.Yes, veg people may be deficient in a few areas of their diet - but the average north american is deficient in the vast majority of their diet (I can't count how many people I know who live (for now) off of starch, meat, cheeze, and sugar. Forget fruits, forget real vegitables (starches hardly count!)). EDIT: So my point there is that while a veg has to be careful - so does everyone else. Meat doesn't even come close to containing everything we need to be healthy either.

If I had to pick the diet of an uneducated vegan or an uneducated meat eater, I feel pretty confident I'd be one hell of a lot healthier going the vegi route!

I am an advocate of a balanced diet though that contains meat and dairy, as yes, we are obviously omnivorous. I couldn't give up dairy because cheeze is too awesome, and couldn't give up meat because I just love fish too much. Red meat and chicken I can forget about no problem (I've gone years without eating land animal meat).

 

[Tiwas]

Your figures for how much protien a person needs sound extremely high, most nutritionists I've read/talked to recommend for me (about 190lbs) to get around 75-100g of protien per day

Most nutritionists read books from the previous century Most recommendations the last few years say 1-2g/lbs lbm. Higher if you're on a diet (to prevent muscle loss)

 

[Tiwas]

I think the problem there is you're comparing a vegitarian/vegan to a person with a proper diet that contains meat.

Isn't that the only comparison? I try to stay away from analogues like comparing the swimming efficiency of someone with no arms to someone with no legs. When comparing diets, you have to compare them when done correctly.

But...I do agree that a lot more vegans/vegetarians are aware of what they're eating. The difference is they could die from malnutrition (which is a misnomer, since most of us have malnutrition (that probably sounded dumb, but I'm too tired to spend time trying to phrase that better)). It also comes down to body type, like I mentioned. Putting me own fruit/vegetables only would be like locking up an addict. I'd get violent withdrawals, and my body wouldn't function.

 

[AToE]

Most nutritionists read books from the previous century Most recommendations the last few years say 1-2g/lbs lbm. Higher if you're on a diet (to prevent muscle loss)

I've never heard of this, and I do a lot of nutritional reading. I've heard of atheletes shooting for more than 150-300g per day (even a few vegan ones, who yes, do pull it off nicely. There's even some vegan body builders... somehow...).

I'm intrigued though. The general rule I've always heard is take your weight in pounds and divide it by 3, then make that number into grams if you're eating meat, divide it by 2 if you're not eating animal protein (because you'll have to be going for complimentary proteins). I'll have to get back at reading.

I wonder how those number will convert to vegitable proteins, as obviously to get complete protein then requires more total protien intake.

 

[AToE]

Isn't that the only comparison? I try to stay away from analogues like comparing the swimming efficiency of someone with no arms to someone with no legs. When comparing diets, you have to compare them when done correctly.

But...I do agree that a lot more vegans/vegetarians are aware of what they're eating. The difference is they could die from malnutrition (which is a misnomer, since most of us have malnutrition (that probably sounded dumb, but I'm too tired to spend time trying to phrase that better)). It also comes down to body type, like I mentioned. Putting me own fruit/vegetables only would be like locking up an addict. I'd get violent withdrawals, and my body wouldn't function.

This is a little different though, because the majority of vegans have some idea (at least "some") what they're doing, and the vast majority of everyone else has no bloody idea.

I think body type might also be combined with what you're used to - feed dairy or meat to my ex girlfriend and she gets violently ill, even if she doesn't know it was given to her.

I'll totally agree that it would be easier to design a good diet around both meat and plant - but I think a near ideal diet could come from either aproach. Many of the world's healthiest, longest lived people are vegitarians or eat very little animal product. EDIT: If you had to eat all plants or all meats, one of those will put your life expectancy around 50 (Inuit), the other'll do fine.

 

[AToE]

And I think if you tallied up all the veg people who die from malnutrition you'd have a pretty short list! I doubt anyone other than someone trying to live off of white bread could actually die from this!

Like I mentioned earlier too - vegitarians are prone to live off bread and cheese and processed food, it's not the lack of animal protien messing them up, it's the lack of much else.

I've never met a vegan who was showing any serious signs of malnutrition other than iron difficiency. (My ex went vegitarian when she was 12, full out vegan when she was 14, and is 23 now - blood tests and all show her to be totally good as far as nutrition goes, needs to beef up on the iron a bit though, but she also has a family history of iron difficiency).


I love how the more I type the less I can spell properly!

 

[mccann51]

Okay, I'm really jumping into the middle of this, and I didn't read every word, so sorry if I'm repeating or making no sense.

In terms of the estrogen thing: yes, certain foods do have phyto-estrogen analogs. The big culprit is tofu, which if you partake in a varied diet, should not be the main source of protein or even present in your meals on a daily basis. When I was vegan a few years ago, I would have tofu very rarely, perhaps once a week. It's not necessary with a varied diet. Things like quinoa, wild rice, nutritional yeast, nuts, etc were all staples, but even then, I can get a good thing going with rice and beans. I should note, I was probably training and working out the most when I was a vegan, and was probably the most fit I've been (not saying it was because I was vegan, but that it is possible to do on a vegan diet).

There are also lots of anti-estrogen vegetables, which counter-act the negative effects of phytoestrogens. Three that come to mind: broccoli, nuts and seeds (omega-3 fatty acid, ALA being the big reason here, if I remember correctly), and red wine.

Creatine? Yes, you're not gonna be getting as much creatine on a veg diet, but you're body produces it naturally as well, so it's also not like you're gonna have a deficiency either. If it's that big of a deal, take a supplement; most meat eaters do anyway, so it's kind of a moot point.

B12? This was a big concern for me when I became vegan. I LOVE B12. I used to use it as a supplement, and had a noticeable boost in energy. So, I took great pains to figure out where I could get it without animal products. Big source: yeast! Nutritional yeast, but all that sediment in your unfiltered, uncleared brew, yeah, that's what you want.

200g of protein?! I've looked into this a lot, and you really don't need more than 0.5g per lb of body weight, even if you are lifting and working out a lot. You'd be surprised how efficient your body is at converting that stuff when it needs it. That said, it's definitely not hard to eat that much protein as a vegan. Yes, you have to eat a lot, but it's not impossible. Like I said, nuts and seeds.

All that said, I am no longer vegan or vegetarian. I do partake very conservatively in animal products, though, because I feel the practice of eating as much meat as Americans do is completely unsustainable and bad news for our environment. I've already spent too much time on this though, so I'll leave off on that.

 

[AToE]

Okay, I'm really jumping into the middle of this, and I didn't read every word, so sorry if I'm repeating or making no sense.

In terms of the estrogen thing: yes, certain foods do have phyto-estrogen analogs. The big culprit is tofu, which if you partake in a varied diet, should not be the main source of protein or even present in your meals on a daily basis. When I was vegan a few years ago, I would have tofu very rarely, perhaps once a week. It's not necessary with a varied diet. Things like quinoa, wild rice, nutritional yeast, nuts, etc were all staples, but even then, I can get a good thing going with rice and beans. I should note, I was probably training and working out the most when I was a vegan, and was probably the most fit I've been (not saying it was because I was vegan, but that it is possible to do on a vegan diet).

There are also lots of anti-estrogen vegetables, which counter-act the negative effects of phytoestrogens. Three that come to mind: broccoli, nuts and seeds (omega-3 fatty acid, ALA being the big reason here, if I remember correctly), and red wine.

Creatine? Yes, you're not gonna be getting as much creatine on a veg diet, but you're body produces it naturally as well, so it's also not like you're gonna have a deficiency either. If it's that big of a deal, take a supplement; most meat eaters do anyway, so it's kind of a moot point.

B12? This was a big concern for me when I became vegan. I LOVE B12. I used to use it as a supplement, and had a noticeable boost in energy. So, I took great pains to figure out where I could get it without animal products. Big source: yeast! Nutritional yeast, but all that sediment in your unfiltered, uncleared brew, yeah, that's what you want.

200g of protein?! I've looked into this a lot, and you really don't need more than 0.5g per lb of body weight, even if you are lifting and working out a lot. You'd be surprised how efficient your body is at converting that stuff when it needs it. That said, it's definitely not hard to eat that much protein as a vegan. Yes, you have to eat a lot, but it's not impossible. Like I said, nuts and seeds.

All that said, I am no longer vegan or vegetarian. I do partake very conservatively in animal products, though, because I feel the practice of eating as much meat as Americans do is completely unsustainable and bad news for our environment. I've already spent too much time on this though, so I'll leave off on that.

Well, I should just let you talk for me in the future! That pretty much mirrors what quick research I was able to get done, and your sentiments and mine are the same (also, when I was working out more and pretty ripped I was practically vegan as well from a nutritional point of veiw, maybe a 100g of cheese a month, and a piece of meat (including fish) every few months - and I was pretty ripped at 200lbs at the time, now I'm just a little chubby!).


I have heard of tofu being problematic but didn't know why, now I know - good to know it shouldn't be every day. But, so is bacon, and I'm not stopping eating that once in a while! Even if you told me tofu was worse for you than alcohol I'd have to keep eating it, it's too awesome to give up. ;D

 

[Tiwas]

200g of protein?! I've looked into this a lot, and you really don't need more than 0.5g per lb of body weight, even if you are lifting and working out a lot. You'd be surprised how efficient your body is at converting that stuff when it needs it.

I guess we could argue that all night long and still wouldn't agree. My body doesn't like carbs, and it's been proven that most people will get a more favorable body composition by getting rid of some of the carb and replacing it with protein. As for 0.5g per lbs, that might be enough if you're in a caloric surplus and didn't want to increase size.

As I'm a lazy bastard, I hereby invite you over to Lyle MacDonald's board to discuss the specifics of things.

 

[wildoates]

Next time I'm in Oslo, Tiwas, I'll come visit and we can gnaw on some meat together.

 

[Tiwas]

Next time I'm in Oslo, Tiwas, I'll come visit and we can gnaw on some meat together.

ooh! Ooh! Spare ribs!

 

[AToE]

Tiwas, when do you sleep man?! Carbs aren't great for sure - that's the number 1 mistake most vegitarians make is eating too much of the stuff (probably one of the main mistakes everyone makes actually!). Empty carbs like white bread are really the trouble though, if it's coming with nutrition and lots of protien it isn't bad to have some.

I know I was able to get ripped and into the peak physical condition of my adult life off of around 75-100g of protien a day, but that's certainly not scientific evidence!

Here's a UFC fighter who's a tad bit more ripped than I was though, who is also vegan: Ricardo "Mad Dog" Moreira (google this guy, if him, his trainers and his nutritionalists don't see a problem with him being vegan, then I doubt there is one!)

EDIT: Removed picture of vegan bodybuilder, as apparently the photo in the article was of a different bodybuilder... pretty misleading!


I feel bad about how badly we derailed this conversation, at least it wasn't about mead making even in the beginning! And it is a fun conversation.

 

[AToE]

One thing I like to do when I go shopping for meat is look for bison, elk, that kind of stuff. One of my main problems with meat is factory farming, and with beef it is very hard to know if your cow grew up in a feild, or in a box - but there's no such thing as factory farmed bison! Makes decision making easier for me.


One of the funny things I get into arguments with vegitarians (not vegans) about is eggs and dairy - I think vegitarians picked the wrong things to consume when it comes to trying to be nice to animals. Sure, with meat the animal dies, but some things are worse than death. With factory farmed dairy and eggs (especially eggs, those are the worst) you get maximum pain and suffering.

Free range eggs are easy to find, but I have a seriously tough time finding freerange dairy - it drives me insane. We have lots and lots of great dairy farmers here, but their product gets lumped in with the factory product.

All I want is cheese, cheese and more cheese, from happy cows! (Good cheese makers often insist on free range milk, often grass fed rather than grain as well, apparently it makes much better cheese).

But that's yet another horribley derailed conversation! ;D

 

[wildoates]

ooh! Ooh! Spare ribs!

My son makes the most awesome ribs. Too bad they're sooo expensive in Norway--we spent 600 kroner on a pile of them last summer and I about choked.

 

[mccann51]

I guess we could argue that all night long and still wouldn't agree. My body doesn't like carbs, and it's been proven that most people will get a more favorable body composition by getting rid of some of the carb and replacing it with protein. As for 0.5g per lbs, that might be enough if you're in a caloric surplus and didn't want to increase size.

As I'm a lazy bastard, I hereby invite you over to Lyle MacDonald's board to discuss the specifics of things.

I agree, we could spend a lot of time disagreeing on this point, haha! It's definitely not something I care enough about to go back and find citations, but the point I'd like you to consider is that you can consume a lot less protein than you think and still get the same results. I also understand people's body's are different (this is something fitness "gurus" never seem to remember when they come up with the newest diet and fitness fads that they want to sell), but fiber is a whole different beast of a carb from say pasta-and-bread carbs (as AToE pointed out), and it's also been shown that protein PLUS fiber will result in a good body composition.
All this said, I'm not disparaging pasta, bread, or tofu (my last post); I'm a strong proponent of everything in moderation.


To add to AToE's list of people to check out if you're not aware of them: Jon Fitch (who also dips [chewing tobacco], so take it with a grain of salt) and Jason Ferruggia; both these guys eat predominantly vegan from what I've read.

One of the funny things I get into arguments with vegitarians (not vegans) about is eggs and dairy - I think vegitarians picked the wrong things to consume when it comes to trying to be nice to animals. Sure, with meat the animal dies, but some things are worse than death. With factory farmed dairy and eggs (especially eggs, those are the worst) you get maximum pain and suffering.

Free range eggs are easy to find, but I have a seriously tough time finding freerange dairy - it drives me insane. We have lots and lots of great dairy farmers here, but their product gets lumped in with the factory product.

All I want is cheese, cheese and more cheese, from happy cows! (Good cheese makers often insist on free range milk, often grass fed rather than grain as well, apparently it makes much better cheese)

To add to this - but hopefully not to add too much guilt - it's been shown that dairy products are actually more ecologically taxing than just eating chicken (which is actually for ecologically sound), for instance. Again, not trying to step on anybody's ToE's (haha, sorry, had to do it), as I eat dairy, but it's good info to keep in mind. I find farmer's markets are pretty good for quality dairy.



Haha, I'm enjoying this, but I really gotta get back to work!

EDIT: another great article I just found from Conservation Magazine, which is, btw, published by the Society for Conservation Biology, a reputable professional, scientific society, for what it's worth.

 

[Tiwas]

AToE: as long as I get my 3 hours a day I'm fine

But about carbs: it seems we agree to an extent, but the thing is that carbs are bad (except what you need to fill up glycogen, you really don't need any - the body can even convert other nutrients into carbs) - the difference is how badly you react to them. I don't have all the references, but all the research I've seen from the last decade agrees on just that.

Here's roughly the caloric layout for me:
Carbs: 100g (400kcal)
Fat: 100-150g (900-1350kcal)
Now...in order for me to even pass 2000kcal (I'm 100kg, but not ripped) I do need quite a bit of protein just for that.

But anyway...if smaller amounts of protein works fine for you, you should stick with it. If I eat more than max 200g in a day I get gas enough to power a small village and I end up bloated (I can add ~10lbs of just bloat, and it's not from salt).

Another way to look at it is this:
* There are no essential carbs
* There ARE essential fatty acids
* There ARE essential amino acids
* The body can convert almost anything to sugar, and when it can't it is designed to run on ketones
* Too much fat is bad for you (yes, so is too much protein ), so you need to get calories from other sources

But I'm jumping off this part of the discussion now. I believe we are all strong willed and we all believe we have "the answer" (tm), so it's really no use. I still recommend discussing the subject with Lyle. He's regarded as one of the top in his field.

 

[Tiwas]

My son makes the most awesome ribs. Too bad they're sooo expensive in Norway--we spent 600 kroner on a pile of them last summer and I about choked.

You should try our traditional belly pork (is that right? That's what the aussies called it) if you ever come in winter. It's soooooo good And it's actually pretty cheap

 

[AToE]

I shouldn't really get into these kinds of discussions in the first place, because I'm not a nutrition expert, but also because it gets confusing I think.

My thing isn't saying at all that vegan is healthier than omnivorous. My thing is more than people have this idea that being vegan properly is difficult, when in fact it's rather easy as long as you don't eat junk all the time, and it's definitely possible for a vegan diet to be perfectly healthy (just as it's possible for a meat eating diet to be perfectly healthy).