Dry or Semi-Sweet or Sweet? How do I know

[Servius82]

So I have been trying to figure this out. I made a mead that to me taste kind of dry, maybe semi-sweet. And my friend thinks its super sweet. So how do you know what to call it? Is there some law/guide line of what makes a mead "dry" or "sweet"? like the FG or the ABV or something?

 

[4give]

It's all in the palate as to what one thinks is sweet. Most of my meads are dry to off-dry (rarely above SG 1.005) and I have a buddy that really likes heavy wood/oak, earthy, etc. Basically doesn't care for sweet stuff. He thought mine were too sweet. I can't remember where I got this from, and any other judges out there on this forum may correct me, but the notes I have for using (final) SG to determine sweetness are:
<1.006 is dry
1-006-1.012 is semi/medium sweet
1-013-1.020 is sweet
>1.020 is dessert level
You're not going to please everyone with the mead that you like. Just like some folks really only like beer, or maybe super bitter beer, etc. Keep in mind there are ways to increase perceived sweetness - mainly sur lie aging. Mouthfeel can impact this as well. A 'heavier' feeling mead might make someone perceive sweetness if it's too cloying feeling. The balance factors to me are sweetness, acidity, ABV, and tannins. Acidity is not really PH, but Total Acidity which is more about the concentration of the acids. Both acidity and tannins/oak can make a semi-sweet wine with an SG of 1.010 seem far less sweet. I had one experimental Trad at 1.000 that I used the adjunct "sur lie" in it, and I used oak as well. Both my wife and daughter thought it was too sweet afterwards and that adding a bit of tartaric acid helped.
Be careful with any additions though. Even if you think your batch might do well with 50ml of 10% tartaric acid, sneak up on it and try it after 20ml, for example. Don't start adding stuff that ends up diluting or smothering what you're trying for. Sometimes, just sitting on a batch for bit longer, and then coming back to it and blending it with another batch works out great (e.g. a batch that's a little too sweet with a dry batch that might be a little 'thin'). Again, sneak up on the blending too. I've used Trads to blend into some of my other meads, and blended Trads too.

As Squatchy's signature says though, I could be one of the 7 out of 4 people that don't know how to use a hydrometer

 

[Servius82]

<1.006 is dry
1-006-1.012 is semi/medium sweet
1-013-1.020 is sweet
>1.020 is dessert level

So if we go of that list, I guess my 1.040 WAS super sweet LOL it did start as a 1.150 tho. and my first dry batch started at 1.090 and finished at 1.000 so I figured the 1.040 would have been more of a semi-sweet with a drop like that.
Is there a way to cut the sweetness after the fact?
Also, my dry trad still had a honey taste to it, how do you counter that?

 

[4give]

Sounds like your palate really likes sweet stuff if you thought that was dry
Your 1.040 batch is sitting at about 14.6% ABV. I don't know if this is a Trad, or what... Besides what I've suggested so far around balance (blend, oak, acid), I think you're asking how to bring down the SG from 1.040??? IMO, it get's a little messy, but two immediate thoughts I have are:
1 - The worst idea is to add water, but it will reduce the SG. Adding other juices that have a lower SG than 1.040 will also dilute the SG and ABV. Could make it worse.
2 - You can fortify this batch with another alcohol. A fine bourbon, rum, or vodka. This will increase the ABV and dilute the SG at the same time while bringing some balance to the sugars.

If it was me, I'd sit on that batch and look to blend it. I have a few bottles from a failed high-ABV experiment that are really sweet (cordial-like), and I've let it just sit for over a year. It actually has a great flavor as it developed some caramel notes from the Hungarian oak. I also have what may be one of the best Trads I've made that I'm itching to tweak as it just seems like a tad bit more sweetness (SG is 1.000) would make it better. I'm going to experiment with blending the sweet Trad with this dry one tonight.

Regarding your dry Trad, I'm a bit confused. You're making mead. If you don't like the flavor of the honey you used, why did you use it? To me, I always try to bring out honey notes in my meads regardless of using fruit, herbs, or whatever. Maybe you're thinking it's too strong of a honey flavor??? Again, I'd refer to 'balance'. Oak and acid may help depending on how 'dry' it really feels/tastes. Maybe mix up a 10% tartaric acid solution, take out some (3-6) shot glasses, put 30ml/1oz of the mead in them, and use a dropper to test what the acid does. I usually start in 2's --> 2 drops in one, 4 drops in the next, 6 drops in the next. Take it too far to where you really don't like it. This helps train your palate for what too much acid might be. You might find that the acid brings out different nuances and tones down the 'honey taste'. Or, just sit on it for awhile longer.

 

[Servius82]

Sounds like your palate really likes sweet stuff if you thought that was dry

Ya... I might like sugar just a little too much HAHA When I was younger I use to put away about 4L of soda a day. It was my "water" and I didn't drink water water unless it was mixed with something like coffee (with lots of sugar) or tea (with honey) or kool-aid (basically flavored sugar water). It has made it hard for me to determine if something is too sweet. I want to make a mead that I can enjoy with my friends.

I think you're asking how to bring down the SG from 1.040???

No, I meant changing it from a sweet to a dry after its done. But you still answered it. I need to fortify it or blend it with another. I dont know why but in my head I was thinking something silly like "ya, just toss in some malic acid and salt and the sweetness will go away" kind of like you can do in cooking, but now that I am more awake and thinking better I relized that was a stupid question. You cant really pull sweetness out of a finished product. If I blend it tho with a dry then I can have a semi-sweet and that will cut the sweetness.

Maybe you're thinking it's too strong of a honey flavor???

That is totally what I meant haha it still had an overpowering honey taste. If I had some wine and it tasted like grape juice I wouldn't be happy ether. So I think you are right and I need to work on balance. I just ordered some oak cubes to play with. I keep debating on buying an oak barrel for my bulk aging.

 

[4give]

I want to make a mead that I can enjoy with my friends.

Yeah, I know. My examples were of those when some folks just won't like mead because they're just different (personally, you're really weird if you don't like my mead - LOL). One option is to make a variety of meads so your friends can choose. The downside is you have to make a lot more mead. The upside is you have to make a lot more mead.

 

[Squatchy]

Ya... I might like sugar just a little too much HAHA When I was younger I use to put away about 4L of soda a day. It was my "water" and I didn't drink water water unless it was mixed with something like coffee (with lots of sugar) or tea (with honey) or kool-aid (basically flavored sugar water). It has made it hard for me to determine if something is too sweet. I want to make a mead that I can enjoy with my friends.

No, I meant changing it from a sweet to a dry after its done. But you still answered it. I need to fortify it or blend it with another. I dont know why but in my head I was thinking something silly like "ya, just toss in some malic acid and salt and the sweetness will go away" kind of like you can do in cooking, but now that I am more awake and thinking better I relized that was a stupid question. You cant really pull sweetness out of a finished product. If I blend it tho with a dry then I can have a semi-sweet and that will cut the sweetness.

That is totally what I meant haha it still had an overpowering honey taste. If I had some wine and it tasted like grape juice I wouldn't be happy ether. So I think you are right and I need to work on balance. I just ordered some oak cubes to play with. I keep debating on buying an oak barrel for my bulk aging.

Oak barrels are great. But they are a lot of maintenance. You need to always keep them full. I never empty one unless I have a finished batch to refill them Immediately. The small ones are pretty useless in my opinion. Cubes and spirals will do the same for way less money. The large ones fill up lots of space. I know this from experience. They are nice. But you will be forced to spend lots more money to keep up with big batches to keep them full, and turning over. Have you ever made a 40+ gallon batch? Sometimes a barrel costs me a couple of grand to fill depending on what I am making.
As far as know what they are SG wise. That is still hard for me sometimes when I used to play the competition circuit. There are no set gravity points. So it's all subjective. Even then it can be hard. I can make a 1015 gravity mead and by adding enough tannins I can make it present as a dry. Less than 1010 usually is the " said" dividing line. A tart mead. Say maybe made with currants can be so tart you need to add 1080 with of sugar to make it present well. That may sound super high. But it may not be at all if you have such an acidic/tart mead from natural ingredients.. Don't concern yourself with those things if you are just wanting for things to taste good. If you are reproducing something. Those metrics might be of value then. But generally speaking. Let your mouth lead the way. And lastly. What you like might not be someone else's jam. Don't worry about it. Why make something you don't like based on what other people say that you may not even know. Or hopefully, care about their opinions.

 

[Servius82]

Oak barrels are great. But they are a lot of maintenance. You need to always keep them full.

That is the main reason I haven't gotten one yet.

Have you ever made a 40+ gallon batch? Sometimes a barrel costs me a couple of grand to fill depending on what I am making.

No... but I want to! HAHA I plan on making 2 - 35 gallon batch's here real soon. I just picked up some conical tanks I plan on using as fermenter's. Ordered 500lbs of honey, and now I just need to tweek my recipe to match.

That is still hard for me sometimes when I used to play the competition circuit. There are no set gravity points. So it's all subjective.

See, this is a problem for me. I just learned about the Mazer Cup... so naturally, I want it LOL I mean I know I am nowhere ready for it yet, so I am trying to learn as much as I can to prepare for it, but honestly, I care more about the review/notes then the actually medal. I only semi care what others think. Figuring out if I have a dry or sweet mead is one of the steps I need to learn.

What you like might not be someone else's jam. Don't worry about it. Why make something you don't like based on what other people say that you may not even know. Or hopefully, care about their opinions.

This is typically how I cook. I make it the way I like it and to hell with everyone else. Generally people like it. I plan on doing the same with mead making... once I learn enough. I have a recipe I like right now and I plan on perfecting it. Then I will work on another recipe.

 

[MightyMosin]

I did two batches @ 5 gallons that were identical except for the honey. Each finished at 1.000.

The Orange Blossom absolutely tasted dry.
The Raspberry Blossom tasted sweeter with a bit of a zest to it. More body overall.

The hydrometer give you your sugar levels but your tongue is going to tell you where you want to adjust it to.

 

[stmcw]

When I have similar discussions with some of my staff and local mead-maker customers that want to learn more I challenge them to learn about grape wines and develop their palate for dry, semi and sweet per grape wine standards. Sweet has its place but would never pair a sweet mead with a steak or pasta etc. Any final gravity over 1.040 usually has more sugar than coke colas - soda wines (https://winefolly.com/tips/wines-from-dry-to-sweet-chart/)
This is our reference scale at our commercial winery (we do use our tasters to double check this, but a good start - I think this came from Sergio at Melovino(?) :
Dry 0.990 – 1.004 none to almost no signs of sweetness, but normally requires a bit longer aging
Off-Dry 1.004 – 1.008 just a hint of residual sweetness, and if fermented right, not as much aging is needed
Semi-Sweet 1.008 – 1.020 ideal level of residual sweetness to allow the honey to start shining through
Sweet 1.020 – 1.035 honey really becomes prevalent here, but balancing of sweetness may be required
Dessert Sweet 1.035-1.060 for the definite sweet-tooth but some acidity and/or tannins definitely required

 

[gurn_bot]

There are no shops near to me selling mead year around (some supermarkets stock spiced mead for drinking hot close to Christmas), and I don't produce enough myself to always have a bottle on hand. Always felt like I was missing out on something when working on my next batch and not having a glass of mead on hand to enjoy during the process.
Anyway, that led me to an online retailer (in Germany, where I live) and my first 12 bottles of commercial mead arrived yesterday. I managed to wait until the evening before opening the first bottle. Oh my gosh, it was like drinking syrup! I specially avoided ordering any sweet, since I generally drink dry wine and make dry mead, but got myself some "classic" and some "dry" bottles. Well the classic was so sweet, for my palette, that I instantly regretted buying it. Today I took a gravity reading and it has 1.057!!
I see from the scale above that this might sit at the high end of a dessert sweet. But wow am I glad I didn't order a sweet bottle.
Tonight I'll try the "dry" but I just poured a little into a measuring cylinder to let it reach room temperature for a gravity reading.

Does anybody have much experience with commercial meads and it they tend to be specially sweet? Perhaps I just found the wrong producer for my taste.

The good news is that I don't need to pour this stuff down the drain. It's so sweet that it should be handy for back-sweetening some future batches without all the hard work and dilution issues. I think 1 part in 10 will reach the level of sweetness I'm looking for!

 

[MightyMosin]

My limited experience with commercial mead has been on the sweeter side. I think people expect that something made from honey just has to be sweet and the makers oblige that misconception.

If available try this

Superstition Meadery

Superstition Meadery is an award winning meadery based in Prescott Arizona. We spare no expense in sourcing the very best ingredients and packaging formats to properly craft and display the innovative flavors harnessed from the imaginations of Superstition’s exemplary mead makers. We believe in...

shopmeads.com

That is a dry mead that tastes a bit sweet even though it is dry.
It is a bit crazy to me that you had something as sweet as the 1.057 gravity range. That is just too damn sweet for most people.

If that link is available for shipping in your area, try some of their other traditional meads. They are slightly sweet but nothing like you are describing.

 

[gurn_bot]

Thanks for the link @MightyMosin - my mind is blown! I didn't know people would pay such prices for something akin to wine in the way it's consumed.
I had a browse through the list of producers and compared it to the ones I can find online here (in Germany) and none of them matched so far. It doesn't appear that there is much import and export across the Atlantic, but I'll keep looking around.

I did, at least, find some similarly priced (meaning upwards of $40 per bottle) products over here. I'd love to try them to get an idea of what a good mead might taste like but I'm not prepared to drop that kind of money in a taste experiment. I'd rather spend in on honey and start a new batch!
I'll visit a few middle-age markets this summer to hopefully meet some producers in person. I need to find out if we have anything equivalent to the Mazer Cup here.

I checked the "dry" offering which I bought last week and it gave a gravity reading of 1.015. It was much closer to my preferred range but still sweeter than I'm shooting for. At least I was able to confirm that I can back-sweeten my mead with these products, gaining sweetness without strongly affecting the flavor.

 

[Paladin906]

I typically like my meads in the 1.01 - 1.015 range. That's just me. My skill level is limited when it comes to tannin, oak or other additions so I find that my dry meads end up tasting boring. Like others have said, I've had meads of lower SG taste sweeter than the ones of higher SG so although I use SG to get me in the range, my taste buds ultimately determine if I want more or less sugar.

 

[Squatchy]

So think about sweet this way. With every component in our meads, we have opposing adjuncts we can use to "balance" out that fraction of the flavor profile. Now when I say balanced I don't mean equal. But I do mean adjusting to make the fraction fit according to your personal taste. Or sometimes styles will ask for one thing over another. And lastly, you might be trying to copy something. And need to make your adjustments to get closer to the original thing you are wanting to copy. So if something is too sweet. You can use different adjuncts to make different types of adjustments that will not change the gravity. But will change the way it presents in your mouth. So let's look at a few different ways to balance the sweetness.

Acid and tannins are usually the first things you will turn to to make your mead present less sweet. There are several types of acids we can use. I will say that generally. The type of acid you find in your mead based on ingredients would be the first choice. Generally, that ends up being the right choice. But not always. We have citric acid, tartaric acid, malic acid, and acid blend. Forget the blend unless you want your mead to taste like Sourpatch candy, only worse. Just forget the blend even exist. The citric acid is what you want to use if you want your mead to taste like the Sourpatch profile. Unnatural, chemicalish, fake, and not in any way part of a natural flavor. So that leaves us with less to consider. You may want to make something less sweet with citric acid. Especially if you have a mead that would like to employ more citric aspects. But use real zest from the chosen citric fruit. Or you can also add the real juice. But remember. That will dilute the ABV and probably move a lot of other balances out of whack. If juice messes with the other aspects of your mead. But if you still want more then the zest is a very good choice. I oftentimes add zest to brighten up a mead. Especially if it has fresh fruits in it that blend nicely with the zest. But you can break the rules here if you want to play. I once added grapefruit zest to a bouchetts and it was one of the best meads I have ever had. Lemon and lime zest can be used and have an effect. And you can get some pretty good changes and still not be able to pick out that it was lemon. You don't always have to use so much the flavor is pronounced. Tartaric acid is what grapes have in them. So any grape meads will benefit from Tartaric acid adjustments. I buy lots of wine kits and make payments out of the grape juices. You can use zest sometimes. But generally speaking. Use the acid that is in your mead. Malic is in apples so that would be the first choice.

I have found that sometimes a different acid will have the effect you are looking for. The bigger your base of experience is the more "hunches" you will have. It's easy to pour a small bit of mead into two different glasses and add a pinch of the matching acid to one glass and add a pitch of the oddball stuff to the other. Start slow. And usually either right away, or, after a couple of tinier ads, you will see pretty easily that one works much better than the other. I have a post that I wrote a while back that helps to teach how to make acid adjustments in fine detail. So we won't rehash that here. So in short. When using acids we are playing sweet against tart to find whatever balance you deem fitting.

The other way we can adjust for too sweet is to add tannins. Tannins will make a change in a different way. Here, we are not using tart. Instead, we are adding "grip" or dryness to the overly sweet to change the perception. A trick on the tongue if you will. You should all be aware of teas that are quite tannic. You take a drink and your mouth dries out. Your teeth feel like they have sandpaper on them. And your face wants to turn into a dried apple doll face. So. You can use test bags to add tannins, and of course, some will add flavors as well. Again. Make small ads until you get what you're looking for.

We can also get tannins using Grape tannins in powder form. And with better wine kits. Often you get the skins from the grapes that were separated at crush. This method might add some flavor depending on how much you use. But unless you use a lot you won't really be able to point out that "grape" tannins have been used unless you have a well-developed pallet. I like to add complexity to my mead and I do this by flying under the radar so I get results. But they are not so noticeable that you can parse them out. I love meads and wine/whiskey where you have to chew on things for a while to pull out all the fraction of the profile. And it's even more mysterious if you can't quite put your finger on it. There is also a powdered tannin that comes from gall nuts. This will also give your mead some grip and make it seem not so sweet. Both are cheap so buy some and try some. Lots of natural plants have tannins. God made them so the plants will taste like crap and then they won't get eaten by critters. So it's kind of like protection for the plants.

And last but not least, we have oak tannins. I hardly ever find a mead that is better without adding some oak. Again. We look for a balance that fits your intentions and not a balance like when you place two, same size weights on a scale and both plates ride the same height off the table. I won't go too deeply here because there is a good podcast and a post where I go in-depth on these issues well. But this is the short of it all. There are several different species of oak trees that are used in this process. Each has different properties based on species and on toast levels. And of late there are more than the traditional amount of species that are now being discovered and used because of their inherent differences as well. Forget about using wood chips or powder. Trust me they suck. You have no chance for adjustment and the presentation is very monaural and without any complexity at all. But the idea here is that each species has its own characteristics. And, you can toast each individual species with different toast levels that will also give you a broad spectrum of choices. So go look up the other sources that I put together a few years ago. I also want to add that I found some information back then that I didn't know the origin of. You know how it is if you are studying. A piece here a bit there and soon enough you have bits and pieces from all over the place that you organize into your own libraries. In the oak stuff, I used some information that was put together by a friend of mine. But at the time I didn't know it. So I want to say thanks to Oscar, here in the forum, and more personal to some of us as Peter Baukulic. When I first started learning about mead. And found this place. I studied every little piece Oscar wrote. And I would highly recommend you read a thread here called Oscar in a nutshell.

I'm tired. And it's late. I might come back and edit this to add some links if it will let me. We used to only have a few minutes to edit and then no more. I think it may be different now and you can edit long after your original post. I just can't remember. Thanks to long Covid, the "I can't remember" might be a permanent issue now. I guess only time will tell.

 

[MightyMosin]

Thanks for that recap. That is like a quick summary of the podcasts that I listened to and it was a nice mental refresher.

 

[gurn_bot]

Thanks for the post @Squatchy - I never heard any of the podcasts so far but now I know how I'll be spending my next "me time". If you don't recommend wood chips then do you only recommend barrel ageing or is there another method?

Through lack of equipment (all my glass-wear is full of mead and cyser) I actually started my first ever beer last weekend. It's astonishing how the hops can pretty much remove all sweetness from the mash even when the gravity is up at around 1.05 and above! I think I'm going to have fun gaining experience in this topic.

 

[MightyMosin]

If you don't recommend wood chips then do you only recommend barrel ageing or is there another method?

The usual recommendation is to use larger pieces of oak like staves, oak cubes or the 1" xoaker spheres. With the added size you get something more similar to a barrel instead of a mono faceted flavoring from chips. It's like simulating your alcohol penetrating deeper into a barrel wood.

Many hobbyist are not making enough to use a barrel and smaller 5 gallon barrels don't provide the same amount of surface area exposure, so the other alternatives are used.

 

[gurn_bot]

Thanks @MightyMosin, that's a relief. I don't think I'm ever going to have a barrel but I'll look into the cubes. I'm halfway through a podcast on oaking now... very interesting listening and I'm looking forward to making some trials when I have space in my fermenters again.

 

[4give]

This is a good quick read with general oak considerations:

https://morewinemaking.com/web_files/intranet.morebeer.com/files/oakinfopaper09.pdf