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Homebrew, Bartering, and The Law

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And by they, you mean the higher level folks. The guy who answered me probably cares to an extent. Or at least he used to.

I do road construction inspection and project management. I have a giant book of specs that I typically only read when my boss is mad at the contractor. Otherwise, the contractor builds the road "ok". Not strictly to spec, but not bad enough that it's worth the cost of enforcing the spec. But, if you document that you didn't follow the spec, everyone gets really mad at you. They dislike my attitude that if you're going to break the law, be a big enough man to be honest about it. Enforce the law, don't enforce the law.... but don't lie and say you did when you didn't.

Of course, then they wonder why I don't really care about my job anymore either.

Ah burn out! I'm going through the ugly part of burn out now. I still care, but I don't really have the energy to fight with people anymore. A few more years, and I'll have just stopped caring all the way around. Can't wait! ;D
 
Alcohol
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Since they added the E chips are uncessary, thats a party all by itself. Just needs to be beltfed, and API and old propane tanks just make it better.
 
Incidentally, your interpretation wouldn't hold water in Pennsylvania. The state defines "sale" as follows: "Sale—Any transfer for a consideration, exchange, barter, gift, offer for sale and distribution".

See http://www.pacode.com/secure/data/061/chapter74/s74.2.html

Yes, this is in the context of malt beverages, but as someone else has said upstream, if you think you've found a loophole, and you're not a lawyer, you're just asking for trouble.
 
Meriadoc said:
Incidentally, your interpretation wouldn't hold water in Pennsylvania. The state defines "sale" as follows: "Sale—Any transfer for a consideration, exchange, barter, gift, offer for sale and distribution".

See http://www.pacode.com/secure/data/061/chapter74/s74.2.html

Yes, this is in the context of malt beverages, but as someone else has said upstream, if you think you've found a loophole, and you're not a lawyer, you're just asking for trouble.
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So you're not even allowed to give it away? That's reason to go postal!
 
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kudapucat said:
So you're not even allowed to give it away? That's reason to go postal!
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I don't think that's what it's saying. I'm not a lawyer, so I can't give legal advice, but the way I read it, they're saying "any transfer for a ... gift". In other words, they're not saying you can't give away your homebrew, but if you give it away in return for a gift, then it's a sale, legally speaking. This would cover the "freewill gifts accepted" situations.

Give it away all you want, but just don't take anything in return, is the way I read it.
 
Ah, the legal dance.

First, 2 options.

1. Be Legal: Put in in the contract of rental and run the risks of it being enforced or coming to the attention of the law.

2. Be Under the Table: Call it what you will but Barter, Services, Buy me materials and I will loan my services to the party. What ever. Basically, this type of interation is in person, not on the internet and not with someone you don't trust. So your neighbor, contractor, mechanic, or what ever are technically making the trade or gift for gift, what ever. But they understand that you are not selling and this is not something to brag about in any sense other than this guy's stuff is great. He's a great friend for letting me try it. Because he is great for this I fixed his car/bought supplies/cleaned his house, ect. But the point is they are NOT going to turn you in or brag that they "Bought Mead" with their services. If it is between consenting adults and it is not discussed to others in terms of distribution or comercial aspect. Is this legal, who cares.

Legal or not, The more noise you make with this the more chance of attracting the goverment. Basically, if you are small time (by small time, amounts UNDER what a distribitor or a small liquor store makes or even a medium sized, read as 50+person festival makes) then you may not even be looked at by the law. Unless ofcourse your "Customers" are bragging and the law gets wind of the bragging or if minors are involved. Mostly what govenments care about is how much $$ is lost and if they are getting a finger in their fact. Under the radar is the way to go. Also, Under the tolerable limit.

The moment you put stuff in writing or on the internet as being "Sold/Bartered Services" then the govenment can peak it's ugly head and take notice. Then hastle you.

Now they may also take notice if you are getting lots of new stuff and apear to be making a better living. You suddenly have a nicer car or other signs of large wealth with out apearing to change your job status or something may also tip them. But if it is to just get some of the minor things done then I see no problem with it.

Even on a State level (in the states myself) they deal with millions of dollars and don't care if a few hundred slip by each month. Unless you impinge on other laws such as drinking age or being blatant in a park or something then you should be fine. Just don't brag and make sure your customers don't mention buying, just drinking and enjoying. And to get some they only need to be your "Friend". It's sort of like disturbance of the peace situation. If you are out camping and don't have anyone around, who cares how much noise you make, just don't burn down the forest. But a noisy party in a condo of a retirement comunity will get shut down fast. It's all realitive.

That's my $. Inflation's a bitch.

Matrix
 
The guy from TTB wrote back again. Refused to answer any of my clarification questions, and basically told me to have the roommates pay a disproportional share of the other utilities.

How f-ed up is that?

*wanders off to find a good bell tower*

Sent from my DROID2 GLOBAL using Tapatalk
 
Nice, someone involved in (theoretically) enforcing the law tells you to break it!

Sometimes the system needs to be just a wee bit corrupt to function properly! I think what he was probably trying to say was "stop putting this into writing, just "somehow" obtain a little extra cash and share your booze, also stop bothering me!". :p
 
Oh yes. He was like, "look, I don't know what to tell you. You can not receive money for booze. If you do, we'll shoot you. If you receive money for chips, or milk or toilet paper it ain't our concern."

Paraphrased. ;)

Sent from my DROID2 GLOBAL using Tapatalk
 
As far as the roommate thing. The law says that I can make 100 more gallons then I otherwise would because of my wife, It does not say that I have to support/pay for her drinking. Was it legal for me to take the wine kit she bought and make it for her? Maybe it was okay because we are married, but we do keep separate bank accounts so it was clearly HER money. I wonder how the law looks upon "Donations toward the next batch" bins sitting on the bar? And of course there could be a "Recommended Donation of $X per bottle" Is there a difference (legally speaking) between buying home brew from someone, and giving them a few bux to help subsidize their next batch? We have those "Brew on Premise" places here, I wonder what permits they need? I don't know, I'm not a lawyer, and I have had some mead already tonight. YMMV.

Spamdog
 
Meriadoc said:
... if you think you've found a loophole, and you're not a lawyer, you're just asking for trouble.
Click to expand...

I once went into traffic court to contest a ticket. I had relevant laws in hand, case law laid out for my argument and knew the right questions to ask the cops.

The judge eventually got pissed at me, yelled at me for thinking I was smart enough to pretend to be a lawyer and threw the book at me revoking my license (which was later taken off my record when his verdict was thrown out)

Lesson learned: Judges HATE HATE -HATE-!!! people who actually put up a real defense and make sure to punish anyone who tries to act lawyerly when they don't have the piece of paper.

The quote, is SAGE advice.
 
Some Judges. One of my civil engineering professors in college got a red light ticket at a near by intersection. He was of the opinion that intersection was programmed wrong, so as a class project we went out and analyzed the intersection. Not only was the timing off on the lights (yellow was too short), but we found a whole host of other issues where the intersection did not comply with MUTCD (Manual of Uniform Traffic Control Devices), the standard used in the USA.

The prof goes into court, with powerpoint presentation in hand. He pleads not guilty, states a very brief explanation as to why. The judge turns to the prosecutor, and the prosecutor gets uppity. My prof proceeds to evicerate him on the technical points of both the law and intersection design. The judge could barely keep from laughing her butt off. She finally calls a halt to the whole circus, advises the cop not to give tickets to civil engineering professors, and moves on with the next case.

- Brett
 
I was going to say, I wouldn't judge all judges (HA!) by an experience with just one (look at the fact that the judge in question's ruling was overturned according to your story - so there was a better judge involved in that one for sure). I've heard of plenty of stories of just the opposite, where the judge was perfectly happy to see someone defending themselves.

Like anyone else they're just people, but also like other groups, the bad ones stick out and are the ones you remember. Same with cops, I know lots of people who dislike cops as a whole, but the reality is that most of them seriously just want to make their turf a better place and are out to help people - but ones that are bad, oh boy are they bad.
 
My favorite.

Years ago my when my grandmother turned 90 I gave her a cane as a joke, she kept on complaining that at her age people should give her more respect, and I told her if she acted helpless it would help.

About a year of that she was actually using the cane when a 24 year old male stole her purse. She chased him down in the crowd and broke his arm with the cane.

Well in Texas it is (or at least then) was illegal to use violent force on a fleeing non violent criminal.

I’m sure his defense attorney had connections and managed to get my grandmother charged with assault and battery. The day of the court case my brother and I flew out there to support here and we were worried, after all this is our 90 year grandmother.

The judge at first started chewing out the kid for assaulting my grandmother, when the stopped him and explained what had happened. He slammed his gavel down, said ‘Not in my court’ proceeded to chew out the district attorney and then looked at my grandmother and said “Next time use it on his head”

End of case.

Judges are just people, some great, some disgustingly lousy and the majority just doing the best they can at a hard job.


Cheers
Jay
 
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