I’ve seen a lot of talk lately about braggots in the style of dark beers such as stouts and porters. Many of them suggest taking a standard stout recipe for example, and simply replacing a certain percentage of the malt extract with honey. So my question is... how do you keep the dark color and heavy body of the stout/porter from becoming lighter when you remove the dark malt and replace it with honey?
Stout Braggot Question
- Thread starter JoeM
- Start date
-
Love Gotmead and want to see it grow? Then consider supporting the site and becoming a Patron! If you're logged in, click on your username to the right of the menu to see how as little as $30/year can get you access to the patron areas and the patron Facebook group and to support Gotmead!
-
We now have a Patron-exclusive Facebook group! Patrons my join at The Gotmead Patron Group. You MUST answer the questions, providing your Patron membership, when you request to join so I can verify your Patron membership. If the questions aren't answered, the request will be turned down.
Joe,
I would use a dark honey, like a Buckwheat or a Wildflower. Not only will this help keep the hue as dark as possible, but the honey has to be fairly potent to stand out against the strong malt flavors. I currently have a Wildflower Show Mead aging, and it is very dark.
Angus
I would use a dark honey, like a Buckwheat or a Wildflower. Not only will this help keep the hue as dark as possible, but the honey has to be fairly potent to stand out against the strong malt flavors. I currently have a Wildflower Show Mead aging, and it is very dark.
Angus
Hey Joe,
If using a beer recipe to make braggot you would replace part of the base malt with honey not the dark malt.
By IMA guidelines 20% of the fermentable sugar need come from honey. In my opinion, stout and porter braggot made with less then 50% honey taste like honey beer, the malt over powers the honey.
http://www.gotmead.com/component/option,com_smf/Itemid,103/topic,3707.0
Anthony
If using a beer recipe to make braggot you would replace part of the base malt with honey not the dark malt.
By IMA guidelines 20% of the fermentable sugar need come from honey. In my opinion, stout and porter braggot made with less then 50% honey taste like honey beer, the malt over powers the honey.
http://www.gotmead.com/component/option,com_smf/Itemid,103/topic,3707.0
Anthony
While that makes a lot of sense, the problem is that a lot of us are extract brewing. And in that case there is no real way to separate the base malt from the dark malt (as you’re getting both of them out of the same can). Most recipes for example call for 6-8 lbs of dark malt extract and the braggot conversion would call for replacing about half of it with honey.
Joe,
Have you considered steeping your specialty grains rather than using extract for that. So you would be able to do your base grain conversion with honey, and then steep or mini-mash your specialties. For that matter you can do the steeping of the grains in a separate pot and run them through a wort chiller or just let them cool, and then add your honey and top up the volume to the desired level. I dunno, I haven't tried this, but it sounds like it should be ok.
You might even use a bit of some of the base malt in the steepin/mini to bring up the maltiness. Who knows, it may be a way to go?
Cheers,
Oskaar
Have you considered steeping your specialty grains rather than using extract for that. So you would be able to do your base grain conversion with honey, and then steep or mini-mash your specialties. For that matter you can do the steeping of the grains in a separate pot and run them through a wort chiller or just let them cool, and then add your honey and top up the volume to the desired level. I dunno, I haven't tried this, but it sounds like it should be ok.
You might even use a bit of some of the base malt in the steepin/mini to bring up the maltiness. Who knows, it may be a way to go?
Cheers,
Oskaar
Oskaar said:
Oskaar said:
I'll second that idea. I recently made a Nut Brown Ale using partial grain steeping and light DME. The specialty grains added a wonderful color, and a fresh crisp flavor to the Ale. I may very well try this one myself.
Angus
Oskaar
Actually I always do a mini mash of specialty grains in a separate pot for all my extract brews, be it beer or braggot. I’ve always found that the addition of a small mash improves the outcome of an extract brew exponentially. When making an extract based stout I always use a good deal of black patent and roasted barley in the mini mash, but I’m still using dark malt extract for my base fermentable.
So basically if I were to convert the recipe to a braggot the mini mash woudnt change, but I’m still replacing some of the dark extract with honey, and basically it’s this replacement that I was wondering about. So I went ahead this afternoon and answered my own question...i took one of my favorite dry Irish stout recipes and converted it to a braggot, just for the sake of experimentation.
So I cant say 100% without seeing the finished product in the glass, but from what I saw today I can say that it doesn’t look as if the color or body of the brew suffered much, if at all. After actually seeing how the batch went together it is pretty evident that most of the color (and probably the body) did indeed come from the mini mash of specialty grains, and being that I didn’t change this from the original recipe, it seems to have held true. We’ll see what happens, only time will tell.
Joe
P.S. Heres the recipe I used in case anyone is interested:
½ lb Black Patent
½ lb Roasted Barley
½ lb 90 L Crystal Malt
¼ lb Flaked Barley
3.3 lb can of Muntons Dark Malt Extract
5 lbs of Dark Clover Honey
½ oz Kent Goldings Hops
1/3 oz Northdown Hops
1 tsp Irish Moss
White Labs Irish Ale Yeast
Water to 5 gallons final volume
The original recipe called for 2 cans of dark malt extract and 1 lb of dark dry malt extract. I simply replaced one can of extract and the lb of dark DME with the 5 lbs of honey.
Actually I always do a mini mash of specialty grains in a separate pot for all my extract brews, be it beer or braggot. I’ve always found that the addition of a small mash improves the outcome of an extract brew exponentially. When making an extract based stout I always use a good deal of black patent and roasted barley in the mini mash, but I’m still using dark malt extract for my base fermentable.
So basically if I were to convert the recipe to a braggot the mini mash woudnt change, but I’m still replacing some of the dark extract with honey, and basically it’s this replacement that I was wondering about. So I went ahead this afternoon and answered my own question...i took one of my favorite dry Irish stout recipes and converted it to a braggot, just for the sake of experimentation.
So I cant say 100% without seeing the finished product in the glass, but from what I saw today I can say that it doesn’t look as if the color or body of the brew suffered much, if at all. After actually seeing how the batch went together it is pretty evident that most of the color (and probably the body) did indeed come from the mini mash of specialty grains, and being that I didn’t change this from the original recipe, it seems to have held true. We’ll see what happens, only time will tell.
Joe
P.S. Heres the recipe I used in case anyone is interested:
½ lb Black Patent
½ lb Roasted Barley
½ lb 90 L Crystal Malt
¼ lb Flaked Barley
3.3 lb can of Muntons Dark Malt Extract
5 lbs of Dark Clover Honey
½ oz Kent Goldings Hops
1/3 oz Northdown Hops
1 tsp Irish Moss
White Labs Irish Ale Yeast
Water to 5 gallons final volume
The original recipe called for 2 cans of dark malt extract and 1 lb of dark dry malt extract. I simply replaced one can of extract and the lb of dark DME with the 5 lbs of honey.
JoeM,
Lots of stout recipes use pale malt as a base along with a pinch of dark crystal and roasted malts for the color. Personally, I think the use of a darker base malt or at least a pound or two of the mid-range malts like biscuit/amber and brown malt really fill out the profile of dark beer.
Sounds like you're off to a great start. Keep us posted.
Lots of stout recipes use pale malt as a base along with a pinch of dark crystal and roasted malts for the color. Personally, I think the use of a darker base malt or at least a pound or two of the mid-range malts like biscuit/amber and brown malt really fill out the profile of dark beer.
Sounds like you're off to a great start. Keep us posted.
I have to assume it's OK to ressurect old threads - I didn't see anything in the Posting 101 Movie I posted yesterday - LOL, so here I go ...
JoeM,
I decided to try an AG version of your Stout Braggot. I'm just curious how the batch you made came out - perhaps you can post a taste profile? Also, at what times into the boil did you add the hops?
In any event, here is the recipe that was converted from JoeM's Partial Mash recipe to an AG version (very slightly modified) thanks to BeerSmith:
Stout Braggot
Braggot
Type: All Grain
Date: 10/28/2006
Batch Size: 5.50 gal
Brewer: GrantLee63
Boil Size: 6.64 gal Asst Brewer: GrantLee63's Assistant
Boil Time: 60 min Equipment: My Equipment
Taste Rating(out of 50): TBD Brewhouse Efficiency: 70.0
Taste Notes: TBD
Ingredients
Amount Item Type % or IBU
4.00 lb Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 59.3 %
1.00 lb Caramel/Crystal Malt - 40L (40.0 SRM) Grain 14.8 %
0.50 lb Black (Patent) Malt (500.0 SRM) Grain 7.4 %
0.50 lb Caramel/Crystal Malt - 80L (80.0 SRM) Grain 7.4 %
0.50 lb Roasted Barley (300.0 SRM) Grain 7.4 %
0.25 lb Barley, Flaked (1.7 SRM) Grain 3.7 %
0.50 oz Northdown [8.50%] (60 min) Hops 16.8 IBU
0.50 oz Goldings, East Kent [5.00%] (60 min) Hops 9.9 IBU
1.00 tsp Irish Moss (20 min)
1 Pkgs Irish Ale (White Labs #WLP004) Yeast-Ale
Beer Profile
Est Original Gravity: 1.029 SG
Measured Original Gravity: 1.100 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.008 SG Measured Final Gravity: 1.040 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 2.7 % Actual Alcohol by Vol: 7.9 %
Bitterness: 26.6 IBU Calories: 480 cal/pint
Est Color: 32.4 SRM Color: Color
Mash Profile
Mash Name: Single Infusion, Full Body Total Grain Weight: 6.75 lb
Sparge Water: 5.59 gal Grain Temperature: 72.0 F
Sparge Temperature: 168.0 F TunTemperature: 72.0 F
Adjust Temp for Equipment: TRUE Mash PH: 5.4 PH
Name Description Step Temp Step Time
Mash In Add 8.44 qt of water at 173.9 F 158.0 F 60 min
Mash Notes: Simple single infusion mash for use with most modern well modified grains (about 95% of the time).
Carbonation and Storage
Carbonation Type: Corn Sugar Volumes of CO2: 2.4
Pressure/Weight: 4.5 oz Carbonation Used: -
Keg/Bottling Temperature: 66.0 F Age for: 182.0 days
Storage Temperature: 66.0 F
Notes
Add 5 pounds of dark clover honey AFTER wort is chilled. Aerate and stir vigorously with lees stirrer before pitching yeast - MAKE STARTER FIRST!
JoeM,
I decided to try an AG version of your Stout Braggot. I'm just curious how the batch you made came out - perhaps you can post a taste profile? Also, at what times into the boil did you add the hops?
In any event, here is the recipe that was converted from JoeM's Partial Mash recipe to an AG version (very slightly modified) thanks to BeerSmith:
Stout Braggot
Braggot
Type: All Grain
Date: 10/28/2006
Batch Size: 5.50 gal
Brewer: GrantLee63
Boil Size: 6.64 gal Asst Brewer: GrantLee63's Assistant
Boil Time: 60 min Equipment: My Equipment
Taste Rating(out of 50): TBD Brewhouse Efficiency: 70.0
Taste Notes: TBD
Ingredients
Amount Item Type % or IBU
4.00 lb Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 59.3 %
1.00 lb Caramel/Crystal Malt - 40L (40.0 SRM) Grain 14.8 %
0.50 lb Black (Patent) Malt (500.0 SRM) Grain 7.4 %
0.50 lb Caramel/Crystal Malt - 80L (80.0 SRM) Grain 7.4 %
0.50 lb Roasted Barley (300.0 SRM) Grain 7.4 %
0.25 lb Barley, Flaked (1.7 SRM) Grain 3.7 %
0.50 oz Northdown [8.50%] (60 min) Hops 16.8 IBU
0.50 oz Goldings, East Kent [5.00%] (60 min) Hops 9.9 IBU
1.00 tsp Irish Moss (20 min)
1 Pkgs Irish Ale (White Labs #WLP004) Yeast-Ale
Beer Profile
Est Original Gravity: 1.029 SG
Measured Original Gravity: 1.100 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.008 SG Measured Final Gravity: 1.040 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 2.7 % Actual Alcohol by Vol: 7.9 %
Bitterness: 26.6 IBU Calories: 480 cal/pint
Est Color: 32.4 SRM Color: Color
Mash Profile
Mash Name: Single Infusion, Full Body Total Grain Weight: 6.75 lb
Sparge Water: 5.59 gal Grain Temperature: 72.0 F
Sparge Temperature: 168.0 F TunTemperature: 72.0 F
Adjust Temp for Equipment: TRUE Mash PH: 5.4 PH
Name Description Step Temp Step Time
Mash In Add 8.44 qt of water at 173.9 F 158.0 F 60 min
Mash Notes: Simple single infusion mash for use with most modern well modified grains (about 95% of the time).
Carbonation and Storage
Carbonation Type: Corn Sugar Volumes of CO2: 2.4
Pressure/Weight: 4.5 oz Carbonation Used: -
Keg/Bottling Temperature: 66.0 F Age for: 182.0 days
Storage Temperature: 66.0 F
Notes
Add 5 pounds of dark clover honey AFTER wort is chilled. Aerate and stir vigorously with lees stirrer before pitching yeast - MAKE STARTER FIRST!
Sorry I took so long to respond to this post, I’ve been really busy at work lately.
I actually just tasted this braggot for the first time a few days ago. It’s about 6 months old now and typically I don’t open my braggots till they are about a year old. But I had a few friends over the other day and they happen to be my biggest braggot fans so I figured I’d break some out.
I can’t say that I was really impressed with this batch. The first thing that I noticed is that the body is pretty thin. It’s not creamy and mouth filling like I’ve come to expect from my stouts. This is not really surprising considering that half the malt was replaced with honey, but still, it stood out.
The second thing I noticed is that although both the stout and mead qualities are present that they don’t really blend well. The taste is sort of angular with the beer and mead qualities competing rather then being harmonious. I’m hoping that it just needs more aging in order for the elements to blend well and become more rounded, so I guess only time will tell.
I actually just tasted this braggot for the first time a few days ago. It’s about 6 months old now and typically I don’t open my braggots till they are about a year old. But I had a few friends over the other day and they happen to be my biggest braggot fans so I figured I’d break some out.
I can’t say that I was really impressed with this batch. The first thing that I noticed is that the body is pretty thin. It’s not creamy and mouth filling like I’ve come to expect from my stouts. This is not really surprising considering that half the malt was replaced with honey, but still, it stood out.
The second thing I noticed is that although both the stout and mead qualities are present that they don’t really blend well. The taste is sort of angular with the beer and mead qualities competing rather then being harmonious. I’m hoping that it just needs more aging in order for the elements to blend well and become more rounded, so I guess only time will tell.
