TTB Wine Industry Seminars

[David Baldwin]

I braved Detroit traffic yesterday to attend the TTB Wine Industry seminar in Dearborn, Michigan.

This seminar which is being held in sevaral locations around the country is an excellent if not essential step forward for anyone dreaming of starting a winery or a meadery.

The TTB personnel there were amazing. They were helpful, and more than willing to answer the "dumb" questions of the newbies. I couldn't believe the number of people there who were there primarily for the breakout session on getting the basic winery permit.

I came away with an application packet and a serious case of information overload.


The permitting process (at least on the Federal side) isn't nearly as hard as it seems, and they are more than willing to help you. They want small wineries in business - the more wineries in operation, the more tax dollars roll in!

Check out their web site at:
www.ttb.gov


Keep dreaming! If you aim at nothing, you'll be sure to hit it.


David Baldwin

 

[lostnbronx]

David,

At the risk of being gauche or invasive, can I ask if you're dreaming of starting a meadery?

-David

 

[David Baldwin]

Lostnbronx,

To answer your question in a nutshell, yes. I have been "dreaming" plotting and planning for over two years now.

Before I found this forum, it was ll just a wild dream. Now...??? Who knows? I have a partner willing to help bankroll and run the operation. It's a long road ahead, and I can't say for sure that we'll ever actually sell a drop of golden ambrosia, but yes I am still dreaming, plotting and planning.

I have a business management degree, and the planning and organizing has at least been a good mental exercise.

I'll keep you posted.

David

 

[ScottS]

David,

In my experience, the feds are pretty easy, but the state is a bunch of pricks. The regulations and requirements are just stupid. The paperwork is the easy part, frankly.

 

[David Baldwin]

Scott,

How far along in the process are you now?


David

 

[ScottS]

Brief timeline:

Nov 2004 - submitted initial applications

Jan-Mar 2004 - submitted 2ndary applications for the state that I didn't even know about until after the primary applications were complete

Apr-May 2004 - had inspections by Feds and State. Feds said "no problem", State said "oh by the way, sorry we didn't tell you this before, but if you want your meadery in your basement, you have to give us unlimited 24 hour unannounced search and seizure powers over your entire house". I told him "<bleep> <bleep> <bleep> NO!".

June 2004 - Tried to decide what to do now.

July 2004 - Ordered a 10x18 shed to be built and delivered.

Aug 4, 2004 - Shed was delivered, floors and walls will be waterproofed this weekend. I'll have the applications revised hopefully by next weekend, and then I'll arrange inspections all over again.

So you could say I'm a ways into it. I'm hoping to have licenses in hand by fall, but I'm not counting on it.

 

[Caerwyn]

I have a quick question. In starting a meadery, the actual place of production obviously has to be clean and hygenic. Who actually 'certifies' the production area as such? Speaking stricktly in the US (and with apologies to everyone else on the forum from every other country), is it the ATF/TTF or whatever they are calling themselves now, the FDA, OSHA, or some combination of all of the above.

As frightening as the ATF is, I would imagine the FDA and OSHA might be even more frightening. And they don't even have any weapons!

Caerwyn

PS: yes, I'd love to start a meadery here in Arizona! Perhaps one of us should actually start the meadery, and then liscense the rest of us as producers.

 

[ScottS]

NO ONE certifies the place of production as clean and hygenic. The assumption is that since you are producing wine, the alcohol will kill off any baddies. So worst case, it is dirty but sterile, and in that situation you are hurting no one but yourself if you sell it. I suspect that in some places you may need a local health department inspection and license to operate, but around here they only deal with restaurants.

Remember, once you get into alcohol production they don't give a damn about quality or safety. All they care about is label accuracy, and MOST importantly, that you pay your taxes.

In MI, you ONLY deal with the Liquor Control Commission, not the Dept of Ag or the local health departments. As for the Feds, the only contact you have with the FDA is to register as a food producer for bioterrorism purposes. Everything is with the TTB (formerly the ATF).

By the way, you can't start a meadery and contract out production like you are saying unless each and every producer gets licensed as well. All production must take place in a licensed, inspected, and locked facility.

 

[WRATHWILDE]

ScottS,

Hows the licensing / inspections going?

Wrathwilde

 

[ScottS]

The inspections are trivial. They look to see that the doors and windows lock, and that's about it. Then they sit you down and show you all of the massive amounts of paperwork that you need to do for them.

The licensing itself is time consuming. If you can do your taxes (NOT 1040EZ), you can probably work your way through the licensing process. I was informed that I was one of the few people that actually read the instructions and filled everything out properly. They are very anal about presentation (as opposed to content), so get it right the first time and make a good impression.

Waiting for them to get back to you is the longest part of the process. How often do you call so as to keep them moving but to not be considered annoying?

Oh, and it helps to have your business partner be a lawyer. When they get really slow I have him call up - "Hello, this is Micheal T, attorney for Vona Meadery..."

 

[Brewbear]

Great info Scott,
Very helpful for those of us that in spite of not having consumed their first large batch ( still aging) dear dream of some day.......
Afterall, life's greatest regrets are chances never taken
Good luck in your endeavour,
Ted

 

[jaysbrew]

Scott,

In some states (I know VA and NC are among them), the option to have it in a basement would not even exist at all. The NC laws, for example, say that the location may not be connected to living quarters. Yes, I too am among the ranks here looking to start a meadery some day.

I have a question for you. Can you explain a bit on what the requirements are for the tax room(s)? It seems that a tax and non-tax area are required, but I have found little further info. What defines an area? A locked door? Some beads? A rope?


Thanks,
Jay

 

[David Baldwin]

Jaybrew,

State requirements may differ, but (if I remember correctly from Tuesday) taxed and non taxed wine may be kept in the same room, however they must be clearly separated and labled accordingly.

That was a specific question asked at Tuesday's seminar.


David.

 

[jaysbrew]

Thanks David.

Scott (or David or anyone else), I have another question...

You had mentioned earlier that "but if you want your meadery in your basement, you have to give us unlimited 24 hour unannounced search and seizure powers...."

What counts as part of the "meadery"? For example, I would think you could put honey and empty bottles in your basement, or anywhere else you please. But what about full bottles? Do they have to stay in your shed or can they be stored elsewhere?


Thanks,
Jay

 

[David Baldwin]

Jaybrew,

From my understanding of the TTB requirements:

You have to very specifically define the area of your "bonded" premises. Once raw materials (fermentables essentially) enter that bonded area, they need to be accounted for from that time until they leave the bonded premises. Tax paid product (with proper documentation) can be stored almost anywhere ie: climate controlled warehouse - as long as physical security requirements are met.

Non-taxed product must be kept at a bonded premises - that may be extra floor space at a neighboring winery willing to share floor space. Again, the proper documentation is critical.

If you are serious about looking into establishing a licensed winery, I'd highly recommend that you find your way to one of these day seminars. TTB tries to have someone on hand from the state licensing authority there to answer questions as well. (Unfortunately for me, they were unable to get someone from Michigan Liquor Control to attend.)

It's a long hard road through mountains of paperwork. You'll have far more questions than I have answers for, and your best source of info is really going to come from the horses mouth.

www.ttb.gov will get you to their web site where you can find good contact info for the field investigation office nearest you.

Good luck.

David

 

[ScottS]

David's got it pretty much right. They do require that you keep tax-paid and un-tax-paid wine separated, usually by have a "production" area and a "retail/wholesale" area, for lack of better terms.

I informed them that I wanted to run the whole operation in one room. They initially said that I was going to have to paint lines on the floor to designate tax-paid and un-tax-paid areas. Later they said that I could just designate the entire area to be un-tax-paid, and that I would pay tax upon removing anything from the premises. Easy enough.