Boiling test - idea for a group brew?

[Gardenfish]

OK I added a qt more and both OG's are 1.104. I see how this will help tell to see if theres a taste difference. I also think if someone is just following a recipe that there will be an even different outcome if the OG's change and the recipe is made by Volume. I think maybe another test done this way and compare all 4 batches. It has my curiosity so when I rack these 2 batches I will start another and measure the OG for the 7 gals and boil half and just bring back to original volume.

Gardenfish

 

[Gardenfish]

Both batches are at 85º. OK to pitch now and put into 65º chest or cool it more first?

Gardenfish

 

[akueck]

Better to cool first. You want to accentuate differences in the must, and warm yeast will throw more "stuff" that will cloud that. Ideally you'd pitch at like 60 and let it warm up to 65 on its own to minimize the yeast contribution.

 

[Sasper]

Medsen what kind of honey did you use?

 

[Medsen Fey]

I decided to use some mint honey I had in the cupboard. I started a Brewlog for it. So it's off an running!

Who else is going to try this other the Gardenfish and me? If there are enough folks, perhaps we can get Pete to create a separate group brewlog area somewhat like the one that the Limeys have.

 

[wayneb]

Medsen, no time to help at present, but I have a lead on some California Buckwheat honey that I'd like to try this with when I have more time for brewing - which is not likely until I get some of this backlog bottled. I need some more carboys!

 

[Kee]

I'd like to, but there's no way I can get to this before about January. There's just too much to do before then.

 

[akueck]

I would really like to. Let's see when I can finish off the millet tests and then I'll start the gears turning.

 

[wildoates]

I'd like to do it too, but I don't want to use Wayne's Raspberry Blossom and that's the only honey I have at the moment.

Plus I need to get a kettle since it doesn't look like I'll ever get mine back.

 

[Gardenfish]

Thats the Raspberry honey I used.

Gardenfish

 

[Medsen Fey]

I ran across this little tidbit in MLD #573.

Subject: Sherry flavors and heating fruit
From: "Mark E. Smith" < msmith@goldrush.comThis e-mail address is being protected from spam bots, you need JavaScript enabled to view it >
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 16:29:28 -0700

I just got done with my first 15 gallon batch of Elderberry-plum Mead and
have taken a look at the latest digest. I see that there is a question
about sherry qualities in mead after aging for a long time. I must say
that I have tried an experiment before where i have taken two meads of the
same recipe and same yeast and with one I diluted the honey in two gallons
of heated water and did my recipe and the other I boiled out the honey for
an hour and did the same. At this point I have tasted the two ((both are
about two years old) and the one that was diluted had a musky taste to it
at first and is exibiting a bit of a sherry taste, the other has a more
chardonnay qualitiy. Now this is not scientific or anything but I think
that it might have to do with the risidual wax and sediment left from the
honey, it might create a barrier in the liquad itself as to help oxidation
and a sherry taste. I have since always boiled my honey out.

Apparently, along with Erroll that's now two votes for boiled meads. It sounds like the non-boiled batch was oxidized, and certainly that could have occurred for many reasons. It would be nice to know how they were stored and handled. I figure we might as well compile as much of the data as possible.

 

[Medsen Fey]

MLD 373 had the following info posted.

Subject: Meadery recap
From: lkbonham@beerlaw.win.netThis e-mail address is being protected from spam bots, you need JavaScript enabled to view it (Louis K. Bonham)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 1994 22:09:06
...Complete information can be found in *Inside Mead*, a nice little
publication that's well worth the $15 to become an AMA member.
The AMA can be reached at 1-800-693-MEAD.
BTW, the latest issue also had a thought-provoking article
writing up the results of a test on an alternative method of mead
production; namely, ultrafiltration of the mead must. This
technique (involving a polysulfone hollow fiber ultra-filtration
membrane with a molecular cutoff at 50K and about 20 psi pressure)
was done in lieu of heating or boiling. A batch was split three
ways, with one must boiled, one flash-heated, and one
ultrafiltered. Each was then pitched with the same yeast starter
and allowed to ferment side-by-side. Acidity and pH were virtually
identical, but the ultrafiltered mead fermented cleaner and fell
clear faster than the other two. When tasted after one year, in
blind comparisons, the ultrafiltered mead was given a "good" rating
by 90% of the judges, as opposed to 10% for the boiled mead and
50% for the flash-heated mead. More interestingly, the
ultrafiltered mead retained more of the honey volatiles and
matured in a matter of months. (One author of the article, Robert
Kime [of Cornell U.] took best Melomel at the 1994 Mazer Cup
Competition with a mead prepared with this technique, so it
doesn't appear to be just hype.)
Anybody had any experence with this technique?

Does anyone have a copy of this particular "Inside Mead" article (or a link) that showed the results of the ultrafiltration versus boiling test? The information may be quite relevant to what we are looking at here even though it did not apparently inlcude a "do nothing" control batch.

 

[skunkboy]

AMA = American Mead Association?

 

[akueck]

I ran across this little tidbit in MLD #573.


Apparently, along with Erroll that's now two votes for boiled meads. It sounds like the non-boiled batch was oxidized, and certainly that could have occurred for many reasons. It would be nice to know how they were stored and handled. I figure we might as well compile as much of the data as possible.

I don't get it. "Residual wax" in the honey caused oxidation by forming a barrier? Huh? I don't dispute this person's experience with his boil/no boil test but I really doubt his rationale. Also, what does "did my recipe" mean? (devil's in the details after all) Did he boil the honey diluted in water or just boiled the honey?

I've heard of the ultrafiltration thing before, I think elsewhere on this site somewhere. Interesting idea; sounds like the flavor and aroma compounds are small enough to pass through the filter but it pulls out things that contribute to haze, etc. One more thing to sanitize though.

And Medsen, when are you starting your test?

 

[Medsen Fey]

Aaron, I wasn't suggesting that his explanation makes any sense. It was just the only case I have found so far where someone did side by side comparison (sort of).

My brewlog is already in progress - just needs some updating. Once I get this mint stuff clear and bottled, I'm planning to try with a semi-sweet to sweet Orange Blossom batch.

Any idea who might have a copy of that article from the old American Mead Association?

 

[akueck]

My brewlog is already in progress - just needs some updating. Once I get this mint stuff clear and bottled, I'm planning to try with a semi-sweet to sweet Orange Blossom batch.

Oops, I forgot about the "boiling" part of the mad mint meads! What means boil and starts with m? Alliteration is much easier to remember.

 

[Medsen Fey]

What means boil and starts with m? Alliteration is much easier to remember.

How about mulled?

 

[Medsen Fey]

In doing some research on my sulfur problems with L2226 I did run across and interesting factoid that might be relevant for this experiment. In wine musts, pasteurization may actually increase H2S production. Apparently the mechanism for this come from nitrogen starved yeast's ability to secrete extracellular proteolytic enzymes. These enzymes break down proteins in the must leading to more H2S. Pasteurization denature the protein making them easier to degrade.

This was proposed in Am. J. Enol. Vitic. 30:3:187-197 (1979)

The Origin and Control of Hydrogen Sulfide during Fermentation of Grape Must
[SIZE=+1]P. J. A. Vos and R. S. Gray

[SIZE=-1]Oude Meester Group, Limited, R.I.T. Centre, P.O. Box 456, Stellenbosch, 7600, Republic of South Africa.[/SIZE]

Grapes of five white cultivars were crushed to provide a total of 104 samples of five cultivars. After centrifugation, several chemical analyses were performed on musts including an assessment of hydrogen sulfide (H2S) development during fermentation. Statistical evaluation established significant correlations (0.001 level) of: free amino nitrogen (FAN) with H2S and soluble solids; protein nitrogen with titratable acidity, turbidity, total nitrogen, and nonprotein nitrogen; ammonia nitrogen with soluble solids, titratable acidity, and pH; nonprotein nitrogen with turbidity and total nitrogen; and, finally, pH with titratable acidity. Considered the most important of these correlations was that between FAN and H2S. Subsequent fermentations, using nonfoaming yeast and protease, were each characterized by several distinct consequences including the stimulation of H2S. These experiments demonstrated that actively fermenting yeasts are capable of extracellular proteolytic activity and that the degradation of must proteins is implicated in the formation of H2S.
Clarification of settled musts by centrifugation had a small but marked effect. Bentonite treatment and removal of the bentonite-protein sediment before fermentation substantially decreased the development of H2S but adversely affected fermentation activity. By contrast, fermentations conducted in contact with bentonite stimulated both H2S development and fermentation rates, as did the pasteurization of must. Enhancement of the assimilable nitrogen content of musts resulted in the most effective control of H2S. Fermentation rates were accelerated, and, in some instances, suppression of H2S was complete.
It thus appears that the formation of H2S occurs indirectly as a result of the nitrogen demand of yeasts and not because of their sulfur requirements as such.
[/SIZE]

I'm not certain that their explanation is entirely accurate, but the fact remains that pasteurizing (or boiling) may increase H2S production. This mechanism may be turned off if the yeast are well fed and have enough nitrogen to keep them happy so that they are not producing proteases. That may be why we don't see it so often because we usually feed them pretty well.

Still since we are boiling these batches, it will be helpful if folks pay attention to sulfur odors and whether or not they show up more in the boiled batches.

 

[Oskaar]

Looks like a nice qualitative approach.

To really nail down your taste preferences I'd throw in a ringer in your triangular tasting. That way you'll have boiled, no-heat and a third bottle basically an A-B-C lineup that you can set into a triangular fashion.

Some simple flight examples:

Flight 1: A-A-B, B-A-B, A-B-A

Flight 2: C-A-A; C-A-C; A-A-C

Flight 3: B-C-B; C-C-B; C-B-B

You would do three flights of two meads and your job is to pick the one that is different from the other two in each set within the flight.

Once that is done you can do a head to head of the three meads A, B and C using a neutral grading sheet similar to what I outlined here.

 

[slowbie]

This looks very interesting. I'm mostly replying so I can auto-subscribe and hear results, but depending on the results you guys get, I'd like to try this on my own sometime down the road to taste the difference for myself. Unfortunately, that probably won't be for another nine months at least since I'm potentially moving halfway across the country.