Naturally Cabonating Kegs

[AToE]

I know some people do refermentation in a keg for carbonation just like is often done in a bottle, and I'm thinking I'm going to start going this route for beer, but have a few questions (bottling is going to drive me insane if I keep this up at the pace I plan to).

What I hope to do is purchase a cheap old fridge that can hold 3-4 corny kegs inside (hopefully I can find one that just runs off of a 15 amp circut), then do the usual conversion business to the door of the fridge with taps - but instead of running the taps to a CO2 regulator that's hooked up to a tank and a keg, I'll just run straight to the keg. (Finding corny kegs around here for reasonable $ looks like it's going to be a pain though, but I'll ask the local brewing club about it, I plan on joining soon).

Why I want to skip the CO2 tank is pretty simple. A: it's simpler, B: it's cheaper, C: I can fit more kegs into the fridge (I know some people put the tank on the outside but I'd rather not), D: I can get the bottle re-fermented taste with yeast in the mix (might as well get some nutrients while I'm poisoning myself - plus I like the taste).

What I'm wondering is if anyone using this method has run into problems with the carbonation running out before the beer is out? Or does it work fine? I've never used a keg at all so I don't really understand exactly what goes on inside one, but I would imagine that as the headspace increases from the beer being drunk won't the pressure keep dropping because it's (the CO2) not being replenished?

 

[wayneb]

What I'm wondering is if anyone using this method has run into problems with the carbonation running out before the beer is out? Or does it work fine? I've never used a keg at all so I don't really understand exactly what goes on inside one, but I would imagine that as the headspace increases from the beer being drunk won't the pressure keep dropping because it's (the CO2) not being replenished?

Yup - that is true. If you keep a "cask conditioned" ale for any length of time after drawing off a few pints, the level of carbonation will go down as CO2 comes out of solution. Not much different than what happens to carbonated soft drinks in a 2L bottle after you've poured off a glass or two. The secret to success for cask conditioned (as opposed to kegged and pressurized) beer is to drink it relatively quickly, before it goes too stale. Also, typically you need a hydraulic pump of some sort to bring liquid out of the container, since CO2 pressure from the initial conditioning won't be sufficient to draw off more than a couple of pints. That kind of beer pump is often referred to as a "beer engine."

 

[AToE]

I see, that makes sense. I didn't realize the pressure wouldn't be enough to drive the fluid past the beginning (I also just read somewhere that it won't generate enough CO2 to properly seal the keg either). This is sounding like it's not going to work for me, might be more of a pain than just buying the stupid CO2 tank and other bits. I can live with some of the fridge being CO2 tank, then cram hopefully 2 or 3 corny kegs in there. More expensive, but if the cheaper way doesn't work for me then I guess the savings don't matter!

I don't want to drink it too fast is the thing, I want to have a few things on tap at all times, and just replace 1 or 2 of the kegs a month, depending on consumption. I'm hoping to get me and my girl's beer budget under control.

 

[AToE]

I just realized I could just do both, let it naturally carb and then keep the pressure up with a CO2 tank. It'd be all the fun and yeastyness of natural carbonation, with all the benifits of CO2 (plus if I get lazy or want a clear beer I can do it).

Plus, I imagine it'll use a little less CO2, so I'll have to get the tank refilled less often, which is nice (because I'm lazy not because that's expensive!).

 

[DaleP]

A small chest freezer is a more economical option. You can buy a new one for under $200 and you will make up the extra cash in utilities. Check out pictures of mine, its a work in progress.
http://penrosepicobrewery.blogspot.com/

 

[AToE]

Thanks Dale, that is something I've been wondering about. By using a fridge instead of something that opens up (and therefore doesn't spill out the cold air immediately) how much am I going to be adding to my utilities...

I could probably find one of those things used as well if I really wanted - I also really like the capacity on yours, it would be fantastic to be able to hold so many kegs at once (I'd have to buy some fancy couplers and learn how to use them to hook up more than a couple to a CO2 tank, but it doesn't sound too complicated really). Plus, I could start with just a couple and then ramp it up as my budget allows.

Were you planning on storing the CO2 in there as well? Also, why is the keg on the far left so much taller than the rest? Different size or is the bottom of the freezer higher there (I'm assuming the pump and such is hidden down there)?

Sorry for all the questions! I'm trying to figure out if I will have to build that collar (looks like only the one keg needs it?).

 

[DaleP]

The one keg is sitting on the compressor ledge. There is room there for one more. The CO2 line going in is split with a barbed t-fitting, short run of hose, another barbed t, etc. After the beer is carbed, it only takes a little to force a beer out. Since I only pour one glass at a time, flow thru the "manifold" is not an issue.
The collar serves two purpoises, one to allow for a keg to sit on the compressor hump, and more importantly, to run the taps thru. The walls of a freezer are full of the refridgerant lines, drilling without hitting one is nigh impossible.
I keep the CO2 tank to the back corner on the outside. No sense wasting space inside, and I can check my pressures without opening the freezer.

 

[AToE]

The one keg is sitting on the compressor ledge. There is room there for one more. The CO2 line going in is split with a barbed t-fitting, short run of hose, another barbed t, etc. After the beer is carbed, it only takes a little to force a beer out. Since I only pour one glass at a time, flow thru the "manifold" is not an issue.
The collar serves two purpoises, one to allow for a keg to sit on the compressor hump, and more importantly, to run the taps thru. The walls of a freezer are full of the refridgerant lines, drilling without hitting one is nigh impossible.
I keep the CO2 tank to the back corner on the outside. No sense wasting space inside, and I can check my pressures without opening the freezer.

That makes sense. Sorry for all the questions, but I'm really looking forward to getting into brewing headlong and I really appreciate the help from someone more experienced. I see your point about putting the CO2 on the outside.

Instead of the collar, could I use tower style taps and put them on the lid? (I'd have to pull it away from the wall every time I wanted to open it would be the downside, but not such a big one). Or are there cooling lines in the lid too? My wild guess is that the lid would just be insulation, but I really have no idea.

I ask that because I have very little for tools right now, I'd have to ask the retailer to cut the wood for the collar for me (and they're rarely accurate enough for that). I feel pretty confident I'd just bungle the whole job if I tried to build that collar, wheras I'm pretty confident about just drilling holes and sealing them.

 

[DaleP]

No lines in the lid, so you are safe. Ebay is the place to shop for towers, I've seen them there relatively cheap.

 

[AToE]

Perfect, thanks! I have seen some good deals for conversion kits there, I'll have to keep my eyes peeled.

Do you remember the dimensions of your freezer? It looked about perfect for my purposes, assuming I can find some 5 gal corny kegs, so I want to try and find something similar.

 

[Medsen Fey]

Just to clarify one point, the yeast will produce more than enough pressure to seal a keg. Look at the "pressure crashing" thread and you can get some details. The yeast can produce enough pressure to activate the pressure relief valve in the keg lid. Sulfiting can moderate this, and some yeast are probably more pressure tolerant than others. As you embark on this project please get a pressure gauge that you can attach to a keg fitting and record the max pressures you get with each yeast/recipe - that information could be very helpful for others looking to use bottles.

It has been my experience from making soda with my daughters that a 5-gallon keg with a fully carbonated beverage (6 atm) will still retain enough carbonation to be nicely sparkling even to the end of the keg. However, that may depend on how long the hose is from the keg to the tap.

 

[BamaBeek]

Natural carbonation in a keg is fine, I did it many times with beer. I've also force-carbonated when I was in a hurry. To manage dispensing and foam control though, it it useful to be able to control keg pressure more easily.

Rather than worrying about it, I would suggest springing for a simple one-dial CO2 pressure regulator and a line to the corny keg. Then rather than buy and deal with some monster CO2 tank, just use 1-2 smaller 10-20 oz paintball style CO2 tanks with appropriate fitting like the larger CO2 tanks. They are small, light, cheap, and quite easy to get refilled at any paintball shop or field.

If you have a scale, a refilling valve and access to a larger CO2 tank, you can even refill your own. If you know the empty weight of the tank, and its max capacity (typically in ounces), a scale will tell you how full it is.

There is added benefit of being able to lay down a blanket of CO2 to reduce oxidation when racking or even bottling.

 

[DaleP]

It was a 9.1 cubic foot model.

 

[Jord]

AToE:

http://calgary.kijiji.ca/c-buy-and-sell-other-Pop-kegs-W0QQAdIdZ200635101

It's only one but there could be more on kijiji that I didn't see.

 

[AToE]

AToE:

http://calgary.kijiji.ca/c-buy-and-sell-other-Pop-kegs-W0QQAdIdZ200635101

It's only one but there could be more on kijiji that I didn't see.

Hey, thanks for looking out for me, I actually saw that one before though. Judging from the price I think that guy's going to take a looooong time to sell it.

 

[AToE]

As you embark on this project please get a pressure gauge that you can attach to a keg fitting and record the max pressures you get with each yeast/recipe - that information could be very helpful for others looking to use bottles.

Sure, shouldn't be much added cost and it would be interesting to know. Just to be clear though, I'm just talking about priming in-keg, not fully fermenting in there, so I don't know why the yeast would make any difference, as the priming sugar should be fully fermentable by any yeast right?

Rather than worrying about it, I would suggest springing for a simple one-dial CO2 pressure regulator and a line to the corny keg. Then rather than buy and deal with some monster CO2 tank, just use 1-2 smaller 10-20 oz paintball style CO2 tanks with appropriate fitting like the larger CO2 tanks. They are small, light, cheap, and quite easy to get refilled at any paintball shop or field.

That might be a bit small for me, how long would one of those last? 1 keg, 2 kegs, half a keg? I really have no idea, maybe this would actually work well for me.

I was just going to get a smaller CO2 tank like a 2.5lb or 5lb one anyways, nothing too large. I'd like to avoid refilling often, the less I have to pay attention to things the better!

 

[Jord]

Admittedly off hand I don't know how much a corny keg usually goes for. I came across an ad in my area which has a guy selling some for $50/keg...is that a good price?

 

[AToE]

I'm not really sure either what a reasonable price is, but I have heard of them going for 30-40 bucks, which sounds better to me. Finding the bloody things is the tough part apparently.

 

[Medsen Fey]

Sure, shouldn't be much added cost and it would be interesting to know. Just to be clear though, I'm just talking about priming in-keg, not fully fermenting in there, so I don't know why the yeast would make any difference, as the priming sugar should be fully fermentable by any yeast right?

Not necessarily. In a closed, pressurized container, Champagne yeast should chew up all the sugar. That's why the Champagne makers selected them in the first place - they are tolerant of pressure. So yeast like EC-1118, DV10 will certainly do it, even in the presence of some degree of SO2. Even K1V can tolerate high pressures.

I'm not sure all yeast will though. I recently tried a cyser fermented with Vintner's Harvest MA33 with 1 Campden tablet per gallon added and it only created 1 atm. So depending on recipe and additives, you may find that not all batches will tolerate the pressure to fully carbonate. Sharing data on your max pressures obtained may provide some useful insight for others on yeast choices.

Kegs can often be found on Ebay for $20-30 (5-gallon size). I have purchaed them from online stores for $25-30 US.

 

[AToE]

Not necessarily. In a closed, pressurized container, Champagne yeast should chew up all the sugar. That's why the Champagne makers selected them in the first place - they are tolerant of pressure. So yeast like EC-1118, DV10 will certainly do it, even in the presence of some degree of SO2. Even K1V can tolerate high pressures.

I'm not sure all yeast will though. I recently tried a cyser fermented with Vintner's Harvest MA33 with 1 Campden tablet per gallon added and it only created 1 atm. So depending on recipe and additives, you may find that not all batches will tolerate the pressure to fully carbonate. Sharing data on your max pressures obtained may provide some useful insight for others on yeast choices.

Hmm, good to know. I'm planning on mostly just having beer and cider on tap, so I imagine that with the lower ABV levels this will be less of an issue, but I will try to keep records and post them in the beer section of gotmead in case it helps anyone else out.

Kegs can often be found on Ebay for $20-30 (5-gallon size). I have purchaed them from online stores for $25-30 US.

Hmm, maybe right now is just bad timing, I've found very few searching both Corny Kegs and Cornelius Kegs - I'll keep looking though and grab them when I see them.

EDIT: Nevermind! I just tried "soda keg" instead and got a pile of hits, many at only $22 a piece. Shipping will hurt from the US, but at least our dollar is almost at par.