First go at mead making... advice?

[Golddiggie]

I think you'll find that a fermentation that drags on for months doesn't produce "clean, good flavors"...in fact, I'm willing to bet the opposite. A healthy fermentation=a healthy flavor/aroma profile. The concept that mead takes months to ferment comes from a time when there were no nutrients to add, and you were pretty much stuck waiting that long anyway.

I'm willing to bet that a mead that finishes in a week or two will taste better than one that takes months to finish if you had identical musts and tried them side by side at the one year mark. If your yeast aren't getting the nutrients they need, they are more likely to make off flavors and aromas, some of which may not disappear with age.

So...I'd shoot for quicker, healthier fermentations. That's just my 2 cents.

Yogi, probably worth more than 2 cents there...

Looks like I'll do all my prep work before the brewing supply store opens, then give them a call to find out how much of the nutrient to add for mead making, and how often it should be added (or if the method on the main site, here, would work for it as well)...

If they have DAP, I'll either get some on Friday, or get it shipped to me... I didn't see it listed on their online store, but I know that not everything they have is on there...

The Wyeast product is labeled as a "Nutrient Blend"... If I go by the 4-6g/gal (total DAP and blend) mentioned by akueck, that would put me at 12g for the 3 gal batches (each) and 20g for the 5 gal batches on the low end... I would have about 4.4g remaining (planning on going by weight now, might be time to get out the powder scale) which I could add to any of the batches as needed, before getting more...

Should I go for adding the Wyeast as you would DAP, both before pitching the yeast and then each day after (for the first three days)?? If I follow the Fermaid K directions, how much would it be at the start (before pitching)?

I'm also looking to not use any chemicals to stop the yeast. I'll rack it as many times as needed to clear the yeast out of it. Unfortunately, since I live on the second floor of a two family house, I don't think setting it outside will work. By the time I carried it back up the stairs, the yeast would probably be back suspended. Or will it take less time for it to settle than it will to become active again? I also don't think my fridge (it's on the small side, blame my landlord being a cheap ********) so stopping it that way isn't much of an option either. How cold do you need to get the must in order to stop the yeast? I might have a closet (in the kitchen) that gets cool enough to get the yeast to stop... Especially since it's going to be in the 40's during the day, and cooler/colder at night... When it's ready to be stopped, it should be even cooler...

Need to start sanitizing everything soon, then get the honey up to a reasonable, working, temperature...

 

[Medsen Fey]

Typically you split up the nutrients, especially if you want maximal alcohol production. You can search "staggered nutrient additions" and find several threads. After you calculate the total amount you plan to add, you can add 1/2 at the very first signs of fermentation, and then you can add the other 1/2 at the 1/3 fermentation point. You can also split it into smaller additions added more frequently if you like, though there isn't much in the way of data to show it gives any different result.

By the way, there really is no need to heat the honey. That just takes extra time and energy.

And to stop yeast reliably, you need the temp below 40F - preferably 32 or below.

 

[Golddiggie]

As Akueck points out, the Wyeast nutrient should work, but even using 1 tsp per gallon is light. The directions for most nutrient are based on wine musts. The Wyeast is based on beer wort. Both of those have much higher amounts of nitrogen and other nutrients than do honey musts. You are being given some good advice here, and I would suggest that you heed it. Undernourished yeast can produce a lot of off odors and flavors, and can take forever to ferment.

I don't put fruit in carboys anymore. It can make a fine mess, and have you literally mopping the ceiling, and then it is a PITA to clean out. Putting fruit in a bag into a carboy also tend to be messy.

If you make 18% ABV batches, they probably won't be very pleasant to drink next summer. You'll need at least another year or two unless you wind up making them sweet.

3 pounds of blackberries in a 3 gallon batch is only going to give you a very light hint of berry. I would add them all to secondary to maximize their impact, or it may be too subtle to appreciate.

When setting up your batches to compare the wood vs. no wood, it will make the comparison more meaningful if you prepare the batches the same, starting with the same gravity. You do have your hydrometer right?

Medsen

Thinking of using 4g/gallon of the wyeast nutrient now... I will be calling the brewing supply store when they open today (in about 2 hours more) to find out how much he uses in batches (size of the batch too)... I'll also call the place around the corner to see if they have any DAP or Fermaid K that I can pick up... If so, then I'll plan on 2-3g/gal of each, adding in stages for the first three days... Should I add more (and how much of which) at the 1/3 mark?

Also thinking of adding the berries now, using the 6 gal bottling bucket for the first week/5-7 days (covered with a sanitized towel), then rack off of that into the carboy. I'll test when that batch is ready to age and add more if needed.

Using the mead calculator, it appears that the more traditional mead mixes will have the same starting gravity... Of course, I'll test to confirm that... Of course I have a hydrometer. I also have a good tube for it (didn't have that for the first batch, I learn fast)... I also have a wine thief now, so pulling samples to test (either hydrometer or taste) will be much easier...

I'm going to place my remote thermal sensor into the kitchen closet to see how cool it is today... I have a Oregon Scientific 'weather station' with a sensor outside as well as the second one inside... Lets me see what the temps are without opening any doors/windows... I've been using the spare/indoor one to monitor the temperature around my beer fermentation vessels... Actually, those should be free either Friday, or before the end of the weekend now... Since primary fermentation is slowing...

 

[Golddiggie]

Typically you split up the nutrients, especially if you want maximal alcohol production. You can search "staggered nutrient additions" and find several threads. After you calculate the total amount you plan to add, you can add 1/2 at the very first signs of fermentation, and then you can add the other 1/2 at the 1/3 fermentation point. You can also split it into smaller additions added more frequently if you like, though there isn't much in the way of data to show it gives any different result.

By the way, there really is no need to heat the honey. That just takes extra time and energy.

And to stop yeast reliably, you need the temp below 40F - preferably 32 or below.

Ok, so it looks like the different products want you to add them at different times... Such as the some DAP before you pitch the yeast, then more during the first three days. Fermaid K only shows at the 1/3 mark, and Wyeast only mentions how much to add... Oy vey...

I hope that Wyeast replies to my email soon... I realize they're in Oregon, so I'm probably not going to see anything before noon (about 1-1/2 hours away for me)... The local shop (around the corner) sucks... Generic message machine/voice mail system picks up... Just saw, online, that they're F'ing closed today... Wonderful...

If I can't get to the place I normally go to, today, I guess I can just get them to ship me enough DAP/Fermaid K to get through these batches, along with the Wyeast product... I would just, probably, want the additional nutrient to arrive before too far into Friday... Although, I would have enough if I use 4g/gal of the Wyeast (with a little left over to split up between the batches)... I can use the 2g/gal at first sign of ferment (or should I add any before pitching the yeast?) adding more, if needed, before the 1/3 mark... I'll plan on adding the second 2g/gal at the 1/3 mark... I'll also plan on getting either DAP or Fermaid K, or both, before the 1/3 mark... Just in case I need it... The nutrient should be ok if placed into the fridge, right? Just thinking that whatever is left over from this round could be used in the next batch, or batches... Unless it will 'expire' before then...

Oh and for 'heating' the honey... I'm talking about getting it to a state where it will be easier to work with... Like a little less solid liquid... Looking to just set it into the kitchen sink with some hot water around it...

 

[Medsen Fey]

If kept dry the nutrients will typically last 3+ years.

You can add nutrients on the same schedule (50% at onset of fermentation, and 50% at the 1/3 fermentation point) regardless of which nutrients you are using. However, DAP is not able to be utilized late in fermentation so adding DAP after about the 1/2 fermentation point is of little value.

In your situation, I would add the 4 grams Wyeast at the end of lag phase, and then add more Wyeast and/or DAP when you get it.

 

[Golddiggie]

If kept dry the nutrients will typically last 3+ years.

You can add nutrients on the same schedule (50% at onset of fermentation, and 50% at the 1/3 fermentation point) regardless of which nutrients you are using. However, DAP is not able to be utilized late in fermentation so adding DAP after about the 1/2 fermentation point is of little value.

In your situation, I would add the 4 grams Wyeast at the end of lag phase, and then add more Wyeast and/or DAP when you get it.

Just so that I'm clear, when you say lag phase, you're talking about after pitching the yeast, and fermentation has begun (onset), right? You're also talking 4g/gal, yes? Should be able to get more of the Wyeast on Friday... Should be ok for ~2 days until I can get more of the Wyeast nutrient, right?

Forgive the neebee questions, since I am so very new to all of this... I started brewing just last week after all...

Just hope I don't need to move before the mead is ready for aging... Can't imagine it will travel too well before fermentation is completed... Not looking to move across the country, but might be moving a few hours away within the next 6-12 months (depends on where I start working)...

Any 'left over' dry nutrient will be vacuum sealed and then stored... Does it need to be chilled, will it harm it if chilled?? Summers can spike around here, so I'd rather have it stable than not...

 

[Medsen Fey]

Just so that I'm clear, when you say lag phase, you're talking about after pitching the yeast, and fermentation has begun (onset), right? You're also talking 4g/gal, yes?

Correct! on both counts.

Should be ok for ~2 days until I can get more of the Wyeast nutrient, right?

Yes.

Any 'left over' dry nutrient will be vacuum sealed and then stored... Does it need to be chilled, will it harm it if chilled?? Summers can spike around here, so I'd rather have it stable than not...

If you keep it chilled, it will probably last forever. As long as it is dry, you're good.

 

[Golddiggie]

Medsen Fey, good to know that I'm on the right track (after getting a little twisted around)... I'll plan to get more nutrient on Friday... Will it be an issue if I go a hair under the 4g/gal? The package I have only has 42.5g in it... So, I'm about 1.5g short... I can add the extra .5g per batch at the 1/3 mark, or will that little not make a difference? Basically, looking at 11.5g in each of the 3 gallon batches and then 19.5g in the 5 gallon batch... IF I need to make up for the lost nutrient, then I'll need to get two containers on Friday... Then I could add 12.5 per 3 gallon batch and 20.5 into the 5 gallon batch... Should have more than enough for the next time (come Fall, 2011) since I don't plan on making this much at one time again... Probably looking at a 3 gallon batch next time (two tops)...

Still getting good info from everyone posting... This is a GREAT resource... Once I'm working again, I'll be sure to become a patron...

 

[Medsen Fey]

... since I don't plan on making this much at one time again... Probably looking at a 3 gallon batch next time (two tops)...

Famous last words. I seem to remember muttering something like that a few years ago.... didn't work out that way for me.

Anyway, if you go a little light on the initial dose of nutrient, that's okay.

 

[Golddiggie]

Famous last words. I seem to remember muttering something like that a few years ago.... didn't work out that way for me.

Anyway, if you go a little light on the initial dose of nutrient, that's okay.

LMAO!!! I tend to not go half-way in anything I do ("there is no try, just do or do not" -- Yoda)... If I have the cabbage to get the honey, then I'll make the batches accordingly... These first batches will help to sway me towards one side or the other (traditional, melomels, etc.)... I do see, eventually, scaling to the point where it makes sense to age inside wood barrels... Then again, I probably won't want to use oak, so they will be more custom built barrels...

I'll be brewing beer while these meads ferment and age, so it's not like I won't have something good to drink... I do see a braggot in my future, once I have fermentation vessels available again... ;D

 

[Golddiggie]

Got an email from Wyeast... They're suggesting/recommending doubling the dosage that's listed on the package for mead (making it 1tsp for 5 gallons)...

I've sent a reply asking for the nitrogen ppm/gram/gallon of their nutrient blend... I think that will really tell me/us how much I'll need to use... It will also determine if I need to go out on Black Friday to get more packages of the nutrient, or not... It's cheaper to go out and get it from the store, then to have them ship it to me and have it on Friday/Saturday...

-- UPDATE --
Got a reply from Wyeast (man that was fast) to my question...

0.5g/gallon gives about 25ppm FAN (free amino nitrogen)...

So, with that in the mix, I should be ok to add 6g in the 3 gallon and 10g in the 5 gallon batches at offset and then again at the 1/3 mark...

I also called the person at the store... He usually just goes for 1tsp/5 gallon batch for the nutrient. BUT, he's using the Wyeast activator package, which probably has additional nutrients (and such) already in it... I'm thinking that the .5/gal dosed twice will do me fine... Also means I have time to get the balance I'll need for the second dosage (can go next week when there are less crazies on the road)...

 

[Medsen Fey]

If possible, can you post the details from the E-mail you received from Wyeast for future reference. I have my doubts about that number. 1 gram per gallon of DAP provides about 55 ppm nitrogen for yeast. If 1 gram per gallon of Wyeast provides 50 ppm nitrogen, it would need to be mostly DAP and would look like white crystal rather than tan powder. Thus I question the accuracy of the information provided. I would expect 1 gram per gallon to provide something around 25 ppm.

Even if 1 gram per gallon provides 50 ppm, keep in mind that yeast typically need a minimum of around 200 ppm for optimal fermentation. Using 1 tsp for 5 gallons is nowhere near optimal. The fact that the guy at the LHBS does it that way does not mean it is adequate for optimal yeast performance. Some people don't use any nutrient, but they usually wind up with incomplete fermentation and don't reach 18%. To get to 18% ABV, and starting with high gravity the yeast need a LOT more nutrient, probably 300-400 ppm for maximal biomass. You don't have to take my word for it. There are a whole bunch of threads around here including some in the Patron's area that talk about maximal alcohol production with various references listed and linked to scientific articles that discuss the issue.

One other tip. If you want maximal alcohol, Lallemand makes a rehydration product called GoFerm (and the even better GoFerm Protect). When used to rehydrate the yeast, they perform faster and are more alcohol tolerant. If you want to make rocket fuel, it can help the yeast get the job done.

 

[Golddiggie]

I already posted the response to my question about nitrogen ppm/gram/gallon of the Wyeast product... I have to trust the manufacturer (at this point) knowing what's in their product... Not to say the person was mistaken, or thought I had a different product (not sure if they offer any other nutrients by themselves)... I'll start with 2g/gallon after fermentation has begun, and then at the 1/3 mark... I'll check on it as you're supposed to, taking readings, of course, with the hydrometer...

Got all three batches of honey water together and in vessels (the honey was almost solid, so it took some work)... Don't think I'll be doing a 5 gallon batch again... At least not with the equipment I have right now... 3 gallons is much more manageable, and the weight of that pot didn't make the burner stands on my stove shift (it did for the 5 gallon since I was using the 16 quart pot)...

I was planning to rehydrate the yeast as per the package instructions, then pitch it in... Also need to make entries in my brew log for all three batches... I have the tubing cut for the flow-off bucket, which has sanitizer in it. I've sanitized the inside of the tubing and well as the end to go into the carboys. Just need to wring out the towel that's going to go over the bucket with the melomel batch, then tie string around it (butchers twine) to keep it taught.

I'll have to keep checking on the batches to see when fermentation kicks in, so that I can add the food... Then it's onto 'business as usual' for making mead...

 

[Medsen Fey]

I already posted the response to my question about nitrogen ppm/gram/gallon of the Wyeast product... I have to trust the manufacturer (at this point) knowing what's in their product...

Actually I was hoping to get their exact language along with the name and e-mail of the contact person to clarify this issue. I believe the information you received was inaccurate as I outlined above.

5 gallons is easier to work with if you aren't heating it.

 

[Golddiggie]

I've taken hydrometer readings from the three batches... For some reason, the numbers are lower than I expected using the mead calculator...

Batch #1
5 gallon glass carboy
Temp: 80F
Gravity: 1.110
Balling: 27
Pot Alc: 15
Yeast:EC-1118
1/3 mark gravity: 1.076?

Batch #2 (melomel)
6.5 gallon open bucket with sanitized cloth cover. Will transfer to 3 gallon glass carboy in 5-7 days.
Temp: 82F
Gravity: 1.100
Balling: 24
Pot. Alc: 13
Yeast: D47
1/3 mark gravity:1.070?

Batch #3
3 gallon glass carboy
Temp: 80F
Gravity: 1.120
Balling: 30
Pot. Alc: 16
Yeast: EC-1118
1/3 mark gravity: 1.083?

For the temps, what do you add to the hydrometer readings since it's calibrated for 60F?? According to the sheet that came with the hydrometer, I should add .002 for 77F (so calling it the same as for 80F) and .003 at 84F (using that number for 82F)...

Am I looking at needing more honey in these batches? Or will the nutrient blend help to resolve that? Or would I be well off giving it the nutrients as already planned, and then back-sweeten once fermentation has stopped, and all the yeast has either been stopped/killed and/or removed?

BTW, this honey was TASTY!!

If I'm going to back-sweeten, I'll get the same type from the local apiary, or maybe from the brewing supply place, since it would be the exact same stuff...

I know I'm getting ahead of myself, but would you back sweeten in the carboy, or transfer to a bucket to make mixing easier? I've already cleaned the 5 gallon bucket the honey came in, so I can use that for one of the 3 gallon batches. I can use the same bottling bucket that the other 3 gallon batch (the melomel) is in. I'll have a 7.5 gallon primary fermentation bucket available by then too (I have my first brew in that, due for racking by the end of this weekend)...

 

[wildoates]

I put the honey in a pan with some water and warm it up until the honey is dissolved. Then I pour it in. It's the only time I'd heat the honey.

 

[Golddiggie]

I put the honey in a pan with some water and warm it up until the honey is dissolved. Then I pour it in. It's the only time I'd heat the honey.

Good to know... When you back-sweeten, how much do you typically add in either a 3 or 5 gallon batch? Or per gallon if you don't do batches that size? How long do you let them blend before adjusting more?

I'm thinking that I'll not screw around with trying to boost things to get more alcohol content, accepting what the numbers are telling me... Once I can confirm that all the yeast is either gone, or dead, I'll back-sweeten the batches as needed...

Does anyone know of a way to clear the yeast out, other than chilling in either a fridge, or freezer, or placing outside (can't be guaranteed the temperatures will be what I need for enough days in a row to place it outside, besides not knowing when that would be), or using chemicals (like sulfites, which family members are actually allergic to)...

Looks like the yeast is coming out of it's lag phase... Time to mix up some nutrient in warm water and add it to each batch... I'll aerate with my immersion blender whip attachment for a few minutes (not too fast mind you) before adding the nutrients... Going with water that's warm to the touch, and no more than 80F... Would that be safe?

 

[YogiBearMead726]

I would just backsweeten to taste. What works for someone might not work for someone else. Try adding <.5 lbs at a time, mix it in, and taste. I would also not backsweeten until you've let these age. There are a few threads which discuss the fact that even in bone dry meads, a percieved sweetness comes back after months or a year of aging. That said, if you backsweeten early rather than later, it may end up being too sweet.

All of the methods you listed work alright, only guaranteed method being with sulfite/sorbate. Another good option is micron filtration, something commercial wineries use to get the yeast out. Otherwise, no. Cold crashing works well for some cases, but not 100% of the time. Better to use the chemicals and be safe than not and be sorry, IMHO.

Adding it to water would work fine, it's the yeast that shouldn't be exposed to temp shock. And if you want to play it safe, you could always mix the nutrients with some of your must and add it back in.

 

[Golddiggie]

Yogi,

I went with using filtered water (around 80F) to dissolve the nutrient before adding it... Only a couple of ounces of water, if that. I did have to get out my powder scale (used it when I was reloading), set it to grams, after calibrating it, and was able to measure out the amount needed per batch. The thing is so accurate that it was hard to get it exact. I went a hair over on all (by under .2g) the dosages..

Hydrometer readings taken on all three batches between 10:30 and 11pm 11/25/2010

Batch #1 (5 gallon)
Temp: 66F
Gravity: 1.43
Balling: 34
Pot. Alc.: 20

Batch #2 (3 gal melomel)
Temp: 70F
Gravity: 1.085 (original 1.084, adjusted per instructions included with hydrometer)
Balling: 22
Pot. Alc.: 12

Batch #3 (3 gallon)
Temp: 66F
Gravity: 1.142
Balling: 34.5
Pot. Alc.: 19

Aerated all three batches... Used a sanitized whisk for the melomel, and my new aerator for the two in carboy's... In simplest terms, I took a thin piece of silver solder around 3/32" diameter, 3' long, bent it in half, made it bulge more at the end, and secured it into my drill chuck... Cleaned it first (soap and hot water) then sanitized it (letting it air dry)... Ran it into the carboys for 3-6 minutes each, various speeds on the drill (being careful to NOT cause a volcano)... I then reinserted the blow-off hoses, and gave both carboys a good shake... SO glad I used those tubes... :O I have a full tube of foam come out of each carboy into the bucket with sanitizer in it... I'm going to leave them alone until the morning, where I'll put a temporary container for the tubes to sit in, and clean the bucket. Putting sanitizer in the bottom again...

Liking what the new tool I made did for aeration... I'm going to go to the local machine shop before I make another batch and see if I can get them to make the same thing out of stainless steel, welded to a small shaft so that it rotates better... I also think that adding another loop would make it even better... I'll post up pictures once I have that created, as well as what I'm talking about before I use it again tomorrow (in the drill chuck) so you get a better idea...

Is this 'normal' after adding nutrients and sitting for just over 24 hours? Batches #1 and #3 now fall in line with what the amount of honey in the batch should have given for readings. It also means, that if these are correct, that batches #1 and #3 should have the yeast dead before it consumes all the sugars in the honey... Batch #2 is indicating on the lower end of the yeast tolerance, so I might need to do more filtering on that batch...

I will see about renting/using the filtering setup from Strange Brew to see what that would run... Or find out what size filter would work for the size batches I have, and plan in the future...

One other question I have, not sure if this should be in it's own thread, but when you guys use StarSan, do you just let it air dry, or do you rinse it with clean (filtered) water after several minutes? How about when it's inside of things, like carboys and tubes? I don't want to have any left in the carboys or tubes used to pump between carboys. I fear that it will kill some of the yeasties inside what's fermenting (not a good thing right now) or give the product an off taste... I did just mix up a 2-1/2 gallon batch of sanitizer (inside a covered bucket) so that I don't need to mix it up so often... Or at least have enough to clean things before they touch the fermenting products (or even when they're done fermenting)...

 

[Golddiggie]

I'm beginning to suspect that the honey wasn't fully dissolved on batches #1 and #3 (did #2 last, not in order of execution since I had already listed them differently, I'm continuing to reference batches by what I posted initially)...

That would explain why the hydrometer readings, today/Thursday evening were so different than when I first made them. The honey wasn't fluid when I started these batches (was a solid mass in the bucket). I had to warm the bucket, and then the containers, of the honey in order to get it into a more working condition. The melomel batch honey was the most fluid of all three by the time I made it. I used a 'double boiler' type setup to warm the honey into a more fluid state. At first, with the 5 gallon bucket, it was hot water in the kitchen sink (changed a few times). Then, as I was able to scoop out enough, I used lexan containers to hold the honey, which could nest on top of other lexan containers that I poured hot water into (not hot enough to cook the honey, just get it less solid)... I did the 5 gallon batch first, heating water to ~140 and pouring some into the 5 gallon bucket (by then, with ~20 pounds of honey in it)... I then poured that back into the pot, stirred while heating it back up again. There were no chunks, and it appeared to be all fluid/in suspension... Obviously, the honey wasn't fully dissolved by the time I took the readings with the first two batches...

I am hopeful that batches 1 and 3 will continue to keep close together in readings. I don't expect to have exact matches, since we are talking about different sized batches... Still, they are closer than they were...

I had to double check the readings, just now... Things just didn't line up... So, looking at the hydrometer, knowing which items I could see clearly (through the foam on top of the must), I've got the correct readings (I hope, will test again tomorrow of course)...
Just listing gravity numbers this time...

Batch #1, 5 gallons
Gravity: 1.146

Batch #3, 3 gallons
Gravity: 1.142

Batch #2, 3 gallons melomel
Gravity: 1.091

Will have to recalculate the 1/3 mark off of these numbers now... Should be:
Batch #1: 1.098
Batch #2: keeping original target of 1.070
Batch #3: 1.096

Sound about right??