Recipe Approval: random questions

[akueck]

So I know that you need to get the O-K from the feds on the ingredient list for each and every mead/beer/wine you sell. Some questions:

1) Where along the mead-making arc is it absolutely necessary to have this approval? Is it ok to wait until it's bottled, or do you need to have the rubber stamp before you even start? Somewhere in between? Basically my question is "if you aren't sure what is going to go into it (experimental, first time making it, etc), can you make it?"

2) Would you expect to ever have a recipe rejected? Obviously if you add illegal ingredients (cocaine mead!) that won't go over well, but assuming you're doing typical things with normal edibles--would they ever say no?

3) How specific does the recipe need to be? Could you submit one for "traditional mead" and then sell an OB, tupelo, and wildflower traditional all under the same recipe? Or would you need three different ones calling out the honey source for each one? Similar question for melomels: can you just say "honey, fruit, water, yeast" or do you need to go into details about what fruit? Would "berries" be ok to cover the various kinds, etc?

4) Does the recipe include ABV? How close do you need to get year-to-year? Probably not a problem for traditionals but melomels might vary some with sugar content of the fruit.

5) How much can you change from batch to batch without needing new approval? If you change proportions of ingredients to achieve a particular flavor profile, does it still count as the same recipe?

Thanks!

 

[tuumi]

Great questions. I'm not going to be much help here but I'll add a few questions. Anything with malt/grain would be rejected right? That falls under the beer license. Did I read somewhere in one of these threads that maple syrup can't be used?

 

[IanB]

First, these questions can be answered at the TTB website. That is how you need to learn, because they are very specific (and it takes a lot of clicking to find this info).

1. You need formula approval before you begin fermenting ANYTHING. (I have a blog post about this somewhere)

2. Yes, my recipes were rejected and I needed to add additional information.

3. As to Honey, they don't ask you (or I haven't been asked to specify) with fruit you need to include the fruit and any herbs by name. (thankfully not the Latin name)

4. You get a range of 1% tolerance, and I have not been asked to send samples for checking. This is more of an honor system.

5. If you change anything you need approval as the ingredients and their quantities in US units is required, and the process for manufacturing is required. (however, the TTB is not going to know if you change your batch size, but technically you need approval from what I understand) Don't change proportions, but if you do, you NEED a new recipe and approval.

6. Formula approval takes 5 ish weeks.

My experiences so far, Brad or others may have much more,
IB

So I know that you need to get the O-K from the feds on the ingredient list for each and every mead/beer/wine you sell. Some questions:

1) Where along the mead-making arc is it absolutely necessary to have this approval? Is it ok to wait until it's bottled, or do you need to have the rubber stamp before you even start? Somewhere in between? Basically my question is "if you aren't sure what is going to go into it (experimental, first time making it, etc), can you make it?"

2) Would you expect to ever have a recipe rejected? Obviously if you add illegal ingredients (cocaine mead!) that won't go over well, but assuming you're doing typical things with normal edibles--would they ever say no?

3) How specific does the recipe need to be? Could you submit one for "traditional mead" and then sell an OB, tupelo, and wildflower traditional all under the same recipe? Or would you need three different ones calling out the honey source for each one? Similar question for melomels: can you just say "honey, fruit, water, yeast" or do you need to go into details about what fruit? Would "berries" be ok to cover the various kinds, etc?

4) Does the recipe include ABV? How close do you need to get year-to-year? Probably not a problem for traditionals but melomels might vary some with sugar content of the fruit.

5) How much can you change from batch to batch without needing new approval? If you change proportions of ingredients to achieve a particular flavor profile, does it still count as the same recipe?

Thanks!

 

[slimslam]

quick question:

what class does pyment fall under and anything specail i need to add in the formulation.

also how can one label pyment from what i understand i cant use the word "mead". how can idescribe it and still be good wiht uncle sam ?

thank you

 

[IanB]

Best approach

Call it what you want, let the TTB tell you if you can use it or not. They will tell you what you can and can not say.

All mead is classified as OTS - Other than standard...(as far as the TTB is concerned)

 

[slimslam]

yeah i was thinking other than standerd but i found under class 6


" f) Class 6; wine from other agricultural products, (6) Wine of this class derived wholly (except for sugar, water, or added alcohol) from one kind of agricultural product shall except in the case of “sake,” be designated by the word “wine” qualified by the name of such agricultural product, e.g., “honey wine,” “raisin wine,” “dried blackberry wine.” Wine of this class not derived wholly from one kind of agricultural product shall be designated as “wine” qualified by a truthful and adequate statement of composition appearing in direct conjunction therewith. Wine of this class rendered effervescent by carbon dioxide resulting solely from the secondary fermentation of wine within a closed container, tank, or bottle shall be further designated as “sparkling”; and wine of this class rendered effervescent by carbon dioxide otherwise derived shall be further designated as “carbonated.”

i think this would work for traditional mead but wasnt sure for pyments and cysers and mels and such.

i put class 6 on my formulation sheet for a traditional i guess that worst case is they kick it back. if they kick it back do they tell you what to put on the sheet to make it ok ?

thanks

Slim