Origins of life

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As for the 747 analogy, in fact, virons can and do “just put themselves together,” given contact with all their necessary parts. "But that's just a viron," you say. Agreed. No, a viron is not “intelligent life” but that doesn’t mean a viron can’t take us down. Do not underestimate the power of a viron…

Which begs the question of whether a virus constitutes a living thing (many camps on that by the way) If you're in the yes camp then people have already created life from raw chemicals in that the strand of RNA or even DNA (not to be mistaken for a chromosome) and the components of the case have been produced and as mentioned will self assemble outside of a living cell given the right conditions. and are as infectious as their natural counterparts, mind you these are copies of working systems, not new designs.
 
I'm no expert on the subject, but to me it just takes too much faith to believe that everything happened by chance. There's just too much complexity & beauty in this world for that. Everything I see points to it being created, a beautiful sunrise, coral reefs, mountains, forests, mead, & many others! Everything would have to be exactly as it is for life to even be possible, the odds of that happening on it's own are astronomical. I think it takes way more faith to believe in anything other than a creator.

As always, everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but I just cannot believe in a world where there is no purpose. :)
 
The odds are astronomical, which is why we don't have life on the moon, mars, etc!

According to what we've figured out with science up until this point, life existing somewhere by accident isn't just possible, it's extremely likely. Sure, the odds are huge, but the universe is so huge as to be more or less incomprehensible for the human mind, and just as huge are the spans of time we're talking about.


The idea that someone created the universe isn't what requires so much difficulty for me to believe in, it's the idea that that creator spontaniously came into existance! If life on Earth seems too complex and unlikely to be accident, then a God coming into existance first is orders of magnitude more complicated and unlikely, from my point of view anyways. To my mind, adding the idea of a creator to explain this universe raises a hundred more questions and problems and "odds-against-it" than just believing that this is what happened to happen because the laws of physics happen to be what they are in our universe.

I'll certainly never cease to be completely awed and humbled by the beauty of this world, it's life, the universe itself, and I'll never stop being greatful that of all the unlikely things to come into existance, one of them was myself!

But never in my life did I ever look at the whole thing and think "must have been created", it just never seemed something necessary to explaining everything. That's just myself of course, I try very hard to understand, and think I do come close to understanding why people believe in a creator, I've just never been able to believe it myself.

:)
 
Well, assuming that there is a creator for a moment, what if our feeble human minds weren't meant to fully understand it all?

Not picking on science at all here, but we're constantly proving previous "scientific facts" wrong.
 
Indeed, atheists are people of faith, just as anyone who espouses a particular faith are people of faith. It is only the content of what is believed (or "not" believed) that differs.

As for Process Theology, I never even heard of such a thing but find the notion of interest.

I'm certainly not a "young world" believer. I'm with Lewis Thomas. I am an n-great grand daughter of some ur-bacteria. I see no conflict between this and my faith. In a biololgy class very early in my own evolution our instructor placed the Genesis creation account side by side with common thoughts on the evolution of evolution and (excepting the definition of "one day") there are remarkable similarities.

Ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny.

I adore apoptosis and believe in it's evolutionary advantage. We wouldn't be able to have hollow vicera (think circulatory system, gastrointestinal system, parts of the respriatory tract, etc) without it. Apoptosis is brilliant! In fact, at the moment of birth, it may be that more of us has died than is actually being born. It's amazing.
 
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Well, assuming that there is a creator for a moment, what if our feeble human minds weren't meant to fully understand it all?

Not picking on science at all here, but we're constantly proving previous "scientific facts" wrong.

Well feeble or great, we by definition, can't understand it all; and not to dogmaticaly defend science, the vast majority of revisions are just that.
Science is questioning by nature and bent on greater understanding. Newtonian physics wasn't proved wrong by relativity, relativity (as a model) pickes up where newtonian physics lacks the resolving ability.
New models of greater detail have been and will be (ad inifitum) drafted to cover our growing observational tools.
One of my personal issues with much of mainstream science is the fixation on those models as reality instead of the tools they are.
 
What About Wave Theory?

Since you've brought up physics...

What's the difference between wave theory and prayer?

While people of faith may say "I'll be praying for you" when someone's ill or struggling, an atheist may say "I'll be sending my thoughts your way." What's the difference?

One thing I learned when I went into the dark is that British English lacks a reference that American English has. We refer to "swear" words as "curse" words. And, indeed, they are.

So.

If a wave really does never go away, is that the sort of wave I want to be making? Do I want to be making cursing waves?
 
Since you've brought up physics...

What's the difference between wave theory and prayer?

While people of faith may say "I'll be praying for you" when someone's ill or struggling, an atheist may say "I'll be sending my thoughts your way." What's the difference?

One thing I learned when I went into the dark is that British English lacks a reference that American English has. We refer to "swear" words as "curse" words. And, indeed, they are.

So.

If a wave really does never go away, is that the sort of wave I want to be making? Do I want to be making cursing waves?

What goes around comes around?
 
Well, assuming that there is a creator for a moment, what if our feeble human minds weren't meant to fully understand it all?

Not picking on science at all here, but we're constantly proving previous "scientific facts" wrong.

Science is only as good as the data we have, and we keep finding better ways to get more accurate data, so we change our models to represent new findings... Which to me is better than continuing to do it wrong just because it's always been done that way...

And my own personal take is that if there is a god/God/gods, they would be to us as we are to ants, for example. Sometimes ants get stepped on even by people who don't mean them ill, they're just beneath notice and sometimes get in the way of what's important to us... and now and then someone takes an interest in an individual ant and drops a breadcrumb right in their path. And the individual ant in question never knows if it was chance or good fortune, or if it had something to do with that big thing up there that they can't really comprehend and can't do anything about anyways so just ignore it and be happy about your breadcrumb...
 
I, myself, am not Large enough to contain my sense of Wonder.

That feeling is something that I recently realized has defined much of my life without my realizing it... it's a very powerful, overwhelming feeling.

Indeed, atheists are people of faith, just as anyone who espouses a particular faith are people of faith. It is only the content of what is believed (or "not" believed) that differs.

This is not true. Saying you do not believe in something that there is no proof for is not a statement of faith. If - as a believer - you make that leap of faith, that's fine, but you can't say it's a leap of faith to NOT believe in something that requires faith.

So if I'm wrong, and humans are just a spontaneous development, there's still a lot to look forward to.

I don't think you have to be wrong for there to be life elsewhere. If there is a God, why should we presume to be so important as to be his only "project"?

As Carl Sagan points out, finding life elsewhere would de-provincialize biology, and I believe would help to de-provincialize global, human society. I agree, it indeed is something to look forward to :)
 
Well, assuming that there is a creator for a moment, what if our feeble human minds weren't meant to fully understand it all?

I would agree, the idea that we could even begin to comprehend something capable of creating the universe is insane (which is part of why I prefer agnosticism to religion. Agnostics often are not "wishy washy", many believe extremely strongly in a higher power, but recognise that the likelihood of any current religion coming even close to the mark is extremely low. As such, they keep their faith, without the dogma).

But also, if you replace "meant to" with "capable of" in your statement, it also applies to both relativity and quantum physics. There's a good reason we cannot comprehend these concepts fully (anyone who says they can has missed something BIG!). Having to understand the extremely tiny, extremely massive, and the extremely fast, these were not things that we had any chance of observing, nor needing to observe during our evolution. This is why we cannot fully wrap our heads around them, they're just outside our "programming".


Not picking on science at all here, but we're constantly proving previous "scientific facts" wrong.

Most of the time we're not actually, we're more finding that they're incomplete. Thought an atom was a ball? Nice step, but let's look at electrons, proton and neutrons. Still incomplete (still not wrong though!), let's bring in quarks. Not deep enough for you? String theory's the stuff. That seems to be as deep as the rabit hole goes... for now.

Religions are also constantly being proven wrong. Sun going around Earth (part science of course, but I consider religion to be partially an early branch of science... an attempt to understand. Both have that, they just have different aproaches), wrong. Earth being a few thousand years old? Wrong. The list goes on and on.

I'll say the same thing in defense of religion as science. Being wrong about ONE thing doesn't make you wrong about EVERYTHING.

A religion might be wrong about the age of the universe, then right about there being a creator in some shape or form (potentially). And atheists (let's not say "science" in these discussions, as if it were "faith vs science" when it's really "faith in supernatural vs atheism". It's insulting to religious people in my opinion, it makes it sound like religion cannot be reconciled with science, which it can! Not that you intended insult there though!) might be wrong about the exact age of the universe too, but right about there being no creator.

Since you've brought up physics...

What's the difference between wave theory and prayer?

While people of faith may say "I'll be praying for you" when someone's ill or struggling, an atheist may say "I'll be sending my thoughts your way." What's the difference?


The difference is that a person of faith is saying "I am sending a request to a higher power to do what's right for you" but an atheist is saying "my sympathies, I feel deeply for you" with no expectation of results coming from that sympathy (not saying that people of faith always expect results to their prayers at all, just that that's what a prayer is in that context, a request for help).

That "wave theory" (gross mis-use of "theory" here from a scientific perspective, but we'll run with it as it makes sense in context) part of it is something that maybe 0.0000001% of atheists would buy into having any effect at all. Expecting results out of "sending thoughts your way" is more something someone of some new-aged belief would believe in (not slamming them, just saying almost zero athiests would believe in this).
 
The difference is that a person of faith is saying "I am sending a request to a higher power to do what's right for you" but an atheist is saying "my sympathies, I feel deeply for you" with no expectation of results coming from that sympathy (not saying that people of faith always expect results to their prayers at all, just that that's what a prayer is in that context, a request for help).

And yet such thoughts, whether sent out as a prayer or not, may be capable of having an impact on physical matter. Those that study noetic science* would probably say that thoughts have energy (and particles?) and can impact the material world. This isn't so far off from beliefs and reported experience with some Eastern practices such as Qigong where thought energy (or energy channeled and directed by thought) is capable of moving objects or healing. I have had conversations with some folks who believe they were healed of their ailments by Qigong masters without them even laying a hand on them. If such things are possible, then it might be that prayers really can be "answered" and that our consciousness is more than the sum of our biochemistry.


* Yes, I've been reading Dan Brown books - so sue me! :p
There's even some good science fiction in some of them.
 
I would agree, the idea that we could even begin to comprehend something capable of creating the universe is insane

We can't completely explain the nature of a Higgs-Boson either, it's too complex and we just recently found proof of it's existence. We can from our limited knowledge make certain assumptions about it though.

Same thing with God. It is possible to look at God logically and figure certain things out. Not completely beyond definition, but certainly beyond what we could fully understand.

(which is part of why I prefer agnosticism to religion. Agnostics often are not "wishy washy", many believe extremely strongly in a higher power, but recognise that the likelihood of any current religion coming even close to the mark is extremely low. As such, they keep their faith, without the dogma).


This would not be Agnosticism then as Agnosticism actually says there is no way to know if there is or isn't a God. This precludes someone who proclaims there is a God. Rather, belief in a God but proclaiming most religions are wrong/hold a piece of the truth is closer to Deism or Syncretism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_belief#Syncretism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnostic
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deism
 
A question for the atheists:

What of the Buechner quote? If modified for the absence of God, is there meaning in this for you?

The place to which you are called
is the place where
your deep gladness
and
the world’s deep hunger
meet.

Does an atheist experience a sense of "calling?" And if so, are you in that "place?" What is the source, by whom or what are your called?
 
And yet such thoughts, whether sent out as a prayer or not, may be capable of having an impact on physical matter. Those that study noetic science* would probably say that thoughts have energy (and particles?) and can impact the material world.

Hmm...Never had heard of noetic science. I wonder if Sandra Ingerman's
Shamanic work
with the transmutation of toxins would be considered "noetic."
 
This is not true. Saying you do not believe in something that there is no proof for is not a statement of faith. If - as a believer - you make that leap of faith, that's fine, but you can't say it's a leap of faith to NOT believe in something that requires faith.

You've lost me here. Belief in God requires a leap of faith. Unbelief in God also requires a leap of faith. Neither stance can be "proven."