Origins of life

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The narrowness still bugs me though. We can all pretty much agree on the basics, and all the religions have a lot of common ground: play nice with others, respect the world around you, give back. Wrapping it up in a complex structure tends to hide the fundamental messages, IMO.

Maybe I can help clarify the Bible's viewpoint on this "narrowness" you mention. There are, of course, many that believe that the only way to be "saved" is to put faith in Jesus. Those that do not, have no hope when they die. John 14:6 may be used to demonstrate this. ("Jesus said to him: 'I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me'".)

This makes me think of people who have never even had contact with Christianity, such as the people who live on North Sentinel island. This seems horribly unfair, doesn't it? I would agree.

Without getting too involved, I would like to just quote one scripture to show that the Bible does indicate a hope for many who may not serve him in their lifetime. The first is at Acts 24:15 which states "and I have hope toward God, which hope these [men] themselves also entertain, that there is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous."

Notice who it said would be resurrected along with the righteous. The unrighteous would be resurrected too. This includes the evildoer who was executed alongside Jesus. All who did not serve God properly that are brought back to life will have the chance to gain accurate knowledge of God and how to serve him, and then be able to make a fully informed decision on if they wanted to serve him or not. Does that help explain it any better?
 
If that Oakland radio preacher guy is right and the world starts to end next week...(May 22nd, is it?)...

I'll admit I'm an atheist in the strict definition...But I have definitely felt connections to the world around me (specifically about 3 instances in my life) that you could consider "spiritual". The flow of life suggests to me that there is some relationship between all of us (including plants, animals, etc etc). Not quite sure what that connection is, why it is, or if it has a purpose or direction.... Life is free-form, we're here to make our own paths. Every choice we make, every act we perform is shaping the world.... Everything is sacred. Show me a world where everyone believes that and I think we'd all get along a lot better.

Bless you, Aaron.
Mitakuye Oyasin
 
Pro 14:12 There is a way that seems right to a man, but its end is the way to death.

Mat 7:21 "Not everyone who calls me 'Lord, Lord' will enter the Kingdom of heaven, but only those who do what my Father in heaven wants them to do.
Mat 7:22 When the Judgment Day comes, many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord! In your name we spoke God's message, by your name we drove out many demons and performed many miracles!'
Mat 7:23 And then I will declare to them, I never knew you; "depart from Me, those working lawlessness!" Psa. 6:8

All will be raised to stand in judgement. Some to eternal life most to eternal torture. Once this life is over there is no second chance to repent.

Mankind can say its not fair and add many thoughts to make him "feel" better but it doesn't change the Truth of it. God's word is final and absolute.
 
I also remember seeing a study recently that showed that atheists and agnostics are better educated on religions than most people of a faith are in their own religion. I thought this was a rather intriguing idea.

This is true, atheists need to convince themself every moment. Instead, believers do not need to convince themself, they just believe.
 
This is true, atheists need to convince themself every moment. Instead, believers do not need to convince themself, they just believe.

Are you sure about this? I know believers who are always questioning. As an agnostic, I feel no need to convince myself of anything. I just acknowledge that I do not know, and carry on living my life the way I was going to live it anyway - help people when I can, try not to leave more of a mess when I leave than when I came in.
 
This is true, atheists need to convince themself every moment. Instead, believers do not need to convince themself, they just believe.

I'd dissagree slightly, though it may just be a dissagreement caused by liguistic differences! Atheists in my opinion don't "need" to convince themselves over and over (I know plenty of blind-faith atheists who know nothing about what they're talking about, they just feel in their gut that gods make no sense), but most atheists choose to constantly re-evaluate and check the new data to make sure they still agree with themselves.

Believers I'd say are also split on this. Some of them just believe because they were told that growing up and it feels right in their gut, no further thought required, but many of them do constantly question and examine their beliefs.

Personally I kind of like the idea that there is no purpose. Life is free-form, we're here to make our own paths. Every choice we make, every act we perform is shaping the world. There is no destiny, no design, no plan. Everything is sacred. Show me a world where everyone believes that and I think we'd all get along a lot better.

Couldn't have said it better myself, practically poetry. :)



I'd get deep into this whole other side of this conversation that's evolving (and no, those ideas don't enrage me! I'm not a child, I'm ok with people having ideas other than my own! :) ), but I don't want to start inflamatory arguments just because I am atheist who yes, does in fact know more about at least one religion than many of it's followers (Christianity, I know lots about other ones too, but not more than their own followers know!), and also as someone who has done a large amount of research into the idea/fact that "only being Christian gets you into heaven" is not actually something very much supported by the New Testament and doesn't need to be part of Christianity at all. It is 100% possible to believe that the Christian God evaluates each person himself on criteria other than simply believing in Jesus and still remain an excellent Christian. It's only certain branchs of Christianity that think their way to heaven is the only way in.

But I'd rather not worry about it. I said it earlier, I am NOT about to debate young earth believers, or any literal scripture believers. It's a pointless conversation, we're both extremists and both "know" we're right, neither's going to give one single inch and the only thing that will be accomplished is anger, and I'm a person who tries to make other people's lives better, not make them upset.
 
Time will tell! Either a person will pass into non existence or into an existence that may make each wish that they had. I just don't think it is worth the risk! Eternity is a long long time.
 
Either a person will pass into non existence or into an existence

This far I agree.

that may make each wish that they had. I just don't think it is worth the risk! Eternity is a long long time.

This I don't see any reason in.

If there is an existance beyond death, I find it to be much more likely to hold a basis in our own personal psychology, than in a universal truth. Which would mean, there is no risk as long as you don't contradict your own personal moral values, whatever they may be.
 
Time will tell! Either a person will pass into non existence or into an existence that may make each wish that they had. I just don't think it is worth the risk! Eternity is a long long time.

Or the third option, there is an afterlife but who/whatever is in charge of it lets people into the good part based on their merit rather than what religion they were (which is 99% of the time just the religion you were born into, so if you have to be in the right religion then you'd better hope you were born into it because your chances of finding and converting to the "correct" religion are near-zero! :) ).

Or the fourth option, the Dharmic religions are right and there is nothing like heaven or hell, just constant cycles of rebirth until you become a completely good person, at which point you either cease to exist or become one with God, depending on which specific religion we're talking about.


It's not really a risk I have any choice about, I can't "choose" to believe in a creator, let alone a specific religion (let's say that one day I do in fact start believing in a creator, how could I possibly pick one religion out of so many?). I could pretend to believe in God and pretend to be whatever religion, but I'd be lying, which has got to be even worse than me just being honest about it.

When I was younger I went through phases where even though I was atheist I tried very hard to believe in a higher power, for years. Didn't work out for me.

I'll just have to hope that if there is an afterlife that me being as good a human being as possible weighs more heavily than the fact that I couldn't manage to convince myself of a higher power. Otherwise, yes, I'm screwed.
 
I'll just have to hope that if there is an afterlife that me being as good a human being as possible weighs more heavily than the fact that I couldn't manage to convince myself of a higher power. Otherwise, yes, I'm screwed.

Well, if we're screwed, we're screwed... And if we are, see ya down there. :)
 
When I talk about exclusivism with Christians I generally just ask questions, rather than provide my own arguments I wait to see what they think themselves (a lot of Christians I've talked to said at first that they absolutely believed that only Christians go to heaven, but after a few quick questions they started realizing that they might not truely be so sure). Regardless of what the scripture says about whether you have to follow Christ to get into heaven (and it actually says things both ways in the new testament) and regardless of whether we're looking at a literal or non-literal interpretation of that scripture, I think these questions are good ones.

Like I said, I'm not out to try and change anyone's beliefs, and I don't expect these questions to change anyones beliefs. The purpose of these questions is simply to clarify for people what their own beliefs actually are.

These questions all have a single root question behind them, and that question is: if only by accepting Jesus as the son of God and truly opening your heart to him can a person get into heaven - when did/does this come into effect? Remember that before Jesus came this was not a requirement YHWH had laid down, according to Judaism the laws in the Tanakh (old testament) only applied to themselves as the chosen people, people of other religions were judged by YHWH on different criteria.

One: Did this requirement for getting into heaven start when Jesus started teaching, or when he died? (Not a very important question, but it slightly effects the later ones).

Two: Whichever of the above you chose, or if you're unsure, this question is the same: IF this requirement came into effect at a specific time, might that specific time only apply to a specific place? More specifically: after Jesus died (let's say that's what you picked for Q1), did everyone other than the tiny handful of Christians at the time in the entire world instantly start being condemned?

If you answered yes, everyone became condemned instantly dispite the fact that they had no way of having even heard of this Jesus fellow, then the questions end here. If you answered no, or unsure, proceed to question three.

Three Considering that Christianity would take several hundreds of years to spread much further than a thousand miles or so around the local area, and also considering that not only did the religion spread slowly but even just simply hearing about the religion would take many generations for the vast majority of the world (and would take even longer than 1500 years to reach some places) - might it make sense that God would have not put that requirement into effect on the entire planet all at once, but rather would have extended amnesty to those who hadn't even heard of Jesus?

If yes, then on to question Four: If you do think that it might have come into effect at different times depending on when people even had any chance whatsoever to fullfill it (can't believe in something you haven't heard of!), once word of Christianity reached an area, what specifically would trigger it coming into effect for that area?

To be more specific - does it come into effect for a village in India when the first wandering Muslim comes through and mentions this other religion that's similar to his own, but just mentions it in passing? Or does it not come into effect until someone who's actually educated in the religion shows up to teach people about it?


If we're answering yes to the need for an actual person of the religion to come, then on to one of the last questions, number Five: How long after this missionary arrives do people have to accept the religion? If someone dies while the guy is just starting to explain who Jesus was, are they possibly exempt, or are they condemned because they'd started to hear but hand't changed their mind? Regardless of that, do people get to sleep on the concept before converting, or must it be immediately? If they are allowed a few days to learn about it, then how long are we talking? A week, a year, a generation? If we've decided it doesn't make sense for God to exclusively let in Christians when others haven't heard of it, or are just finding out about it - is there any possible way of even remotely guessing how long those people are allowed to think about it before throwing away the religion they'd practiced for generations and converting to this new one, for no reason other than that some guy showed up and told them they had no choice but to convert or burn forever?

(Sorry for the length of that one, it's a lot of questions in one)

Last question: What if that missionary just wasn't convincing? Nobody in the village converted, but they didn't reject Jesus because they didn't like him, they simply just weren't convinced? After all, the guy from Islam was there last year and he did a really good job, the Buddhist who showed up the year before that got a few converts, and the Jainist did even better ( that's just for example, the point is that if 15 missionaries show up from different religions, and the Christian guy happens to be less convincing, are they all condemned basically because the guy failed his job?).

Now let's get to the point of all this and fast forward to today. There are still places where people have never even heard the name "Jesus", and beyond that, there are lots of places that are barely even exposed. And even if they are, how are those people supposed to pick the right religion out of all the ones presented to them, why not just keep believing in their own? Could that original amnesty period still be under effect for some people?


And I'll cheat and sneak in one more question. If you answered those questions in a way that made you question absolute exclusivism, might it be better to give God the benifit of the doubt that he knows what he's doing here (I'll call God a male for now...)? Maybe he wanted the Bible written just the way it was so that people would take that particular religion seriously, but maybe he knew all along that a lot of people would take a while, and he's got a plan for that (something about him being omniscient comes to mind here).

Just food for thought, like I said, I'm not out to convert people, just to make them think.
 
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One who reads God's word and understands who God is would not have these questions at all. Follow God's will or die spiritually forever. That has always been the way and will always be the way. Jesus said he is the way, the truth and the life and NO ONE comes to the Father except through HIM. That statement is plain and absolute. Each person has a right to make their own choices and each choice has a consequence. Follow the choices that God has outlined and the outcome is Eternal life with the Father. Follow the other choices and the result is torture forever. The best a person can earn with good deeds is HELL because sin demands death as a penalty (once you sin you cannot un-sin). A person is either under the cover of the death of Jesus or will suffer eternal death of his own if not. Sin is a living thing not simply something someone commits. It grows and perverts body, thought and soul till nothing of God remains in a person. It is all about the satan and God. satan's goal is to hurt God by taking away from him forever those who God created for the explicit purpose of living with God forever. There are two masters and everyone serves one or the other, God or Satan. Mankind was created in his image by his hand and brought to life with his own breath. Nothing else in all creation was made this way. Everything else was spoken into existence.
Mankind's sole purpose for existence is to be in relationship with God, to Glorify God through his actions and to Testify, Tell of the saving blood of Jesus Christ. Without it HELL is the only option under the justice of God.
 
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Fair enough, I take it you'd be in the "instantly after Jesus everyone who wasn't in the immediate area and following him was condemned" camp?

I don't mean to inflame, only to attempt to understand.

Not in any way was that post meant to convert anyone, only to make them think about how the changeover from how it was before Jesus (everyone who was good had a place in the World To Come, regardless of what religion they belonged to as long as they were worshipping God under at least some name (didn't matter the name though), this is the belief of Judaism and what the Tanakh teaches) to how things are believed to be by some Christians after Jesus (that only those who specifically follow that specific religion get into heaven, regardless of whether they even had a chance to hear of Jesus).

I'm trying to understand other peoples beliefs, because it's important for me to understand. The majority of Christians I have ever talked to about this all believe that God makes exceptions for people who had no reasonable chance of being Christian, but I know some Christians do believe this is not the case.

(It has no effect on me, whether you believe God makes exceptions for people with no chance of being Christian or not, someone like myself is still going to be condemned because I had a perfectly good chance and it just didn't work out. I'm not in the Amazon jungle or anything! I've made my bed, I'll lay in it.)

EDIT: Note to Moderators watching this discussion get pretty close to crossing the line: I think we're still on the good side of the line, having a nice discussion, I'm certainly not offended or trying to offend, and I think Mesquite is being civil as well, just extremely convicted in his/her (sorry, I'm not sure if you're male or female, my apologies) beliefs and his/her attempt to communicate them with us.

You're obviously in charge though, full respect from me. Ask me to shut up and I won't bring it up again!
 
Everyone is instantly in the condemned camp the moment they commit the first sin in their life. Before Christ if you were not a Jew or a converted Jew there was NO salvation. The sins of those of the faithful of the Jewish faith were saved up in a sense by animal sacrifice, until Christ died on the cross. Then they were forgiven (forgotten by God).

Also I intend to say no more. I have tried and that is all that is required of me by my Savior. I am a male for the record and a member of the body of Christ, his church, bride and possesion as described in God's Holy word. I live my life (worship and service to God) as a Christian of the first century did in the examples of the New Testament. Talk is cheap and an example of a life lived properly for God is the best Preaching I can do. You are absolutely allowed your own choices. That is how God made man, but he would like for everyone to make the choices that he has described in his Word that lead to life forever with him. Thank you for even listening. Many would not. I applaud this forum and it's members for allowing my posting of everything I have said from God's Word.
 
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Just food for thought, like I said, I'm not out to convert people, just to make them think.


Says the atheist :)

That's an awesome post. I so want to pass it along to a couple of people I know... but I don't think they'll be as civil in their responses as mesquite has been.

And mesquite, what if a person has never sinned? I mean, a baby can't have sinned, right? Is it condemned to hell if it dies prior to its baptism because of bad timing? Again, like AToE, I mean no offense, I just want to understand. (edit, just saw your edit, if you don't reply that's fine too :) )
 
Well I for one would have to weigh in that the divine (if this could even be expressed as a being, supreme or otherwise) might be a bit beyond any religion concieved of, or tome written by, even the most inspired / enlightened / guided individual or group. Should such actually be the truth it seems to me that, by definition, there would be as many meaningful / proper / acceptable (by that divity, people really don't count) relationships as there are mortal sources.
 
Everyone is instantly in the condemned camp the moment they commit the first sin in their life. Before Christ if you were not a Jew or a converted Jew there was NO salvation. The sins of those of the faithful of the Jewish faith were saved up in a sense by animal sacrifice, until Christ died on the cross. Then they were forgiven (forgotten by God).

This is incorrect, the Jews were not a group (ever) that tried to convert people to Judaism, they never believed that someone needed to be Jewish or follow the laws that were set out specifically for Jews to get into "heaven" (gentiles had different rules to follow, which were basically "be a good person" and a couple weird rules).

Talk with any Jewish person and they will tell you that they absolutely do not believe this. Jews believe that they had a special relationship with God and that other peoples elsewhere also had their own relationships with God (though most did of course believe that they were sort of the "elite" chosen by God).

I can find quotes from Jews for hours showing this.

"God permitted to every people something he forbade to others...[and] God sends a prophet to every people according to their own language."

That sums up their beliefs pretty clearly.

Go hop onto this wiki page and it will explain more completely:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_views_of_religious_pluralism#General_classical_views_on_other_religions


I do very much apreciate you being civil, but in order for these conversations to be meaningful I absolutely need to point out when someone has made a claim that is incorrect about a different religion.

EDIT: Just saw your edit. I respect your wishes to bow out of this one, so don't feel obligated to debate me further. I'm not going to alter my post however, because it's important that anyone unfamiliar with Judaism doesn't get the wrong impression of that religion (which dispite having a lot of really bizarre rules (can't eat roadkill, but you can feed it to the gentiles!) is one of the religions of the world that I respect most highly, for my own reasons).
 
Says the atheist :)

That's an awesome post. I so want to pass it along to a couple of people I know... but I don't think they'll be as civil in their responses as mesquite has been.

And mesquite, what if a person has never sinned? I mean, a baby can't have sinned, right? Is it condemned to hell if it dies prior to its baptism because of bad timing? Again, like AToE, I mean no offense, I just want to understand. (edit, just saw your edit, if you don't reply that's fine too :) )

I will answer this. A baby and children up to the age where they realize right from wrong are innocent and sinless and belong to God. They always have been. All others have sin according to the Bible. Anyone can feel free to PM me and I will try to explain what God's word says about any subject. What I personally say if not consistent with his Word is error.