Origins of life

[AToE]

Very fascinating viewpoints to be sure! Very cool to get everyones viewpoints on things. I'd be happy to share a couple Bible verses that explain my belief in the literal interpretation of Genesis, when I'm not stuck at work...

I have a question about the literal Adam and Eve story - is it possible to still view this as a positive story rather than a negative one the same way myself and Wayne were saying (yes it was the end of a perfect relationship with God (while living anyways) but it's also the beginning of true free will, God knew all along we'd eat the apple, because it's impossible for us to not eat the apple at some point in our lives, so this story becomes about a gift from God, rather than a story about us failing God)?

 

[TheAlchemist]

Interesting that we have found a subject that we are all as passionate about as we are about making mead...

In terms of whether atheists or religious people are the ones making leaps of faith, the real question should read:

Is there a God?
a) Yes
b) No
c) I don't know.

Thanks for articulating so elegantly what I tried to so awkwardly...and for throwing in your two cents. Welcome to the discussion.

 

[TheAlchemist]

I just thought of a great (in my opinion) idea about a creator that came from a wonderful series of Science Fiction novels, the Rama series by Arthur C Clarke. He was an atheist, but was really interested in religion and I think wrote some of the most thought provoking things about the subject that anyone ever has written....very deeply provoking and emotionally satisfying a concept. ;D

I was wondering how long it would be before this thread crossed paths with the SciFiNerd thread...

 

[TheAlchemist]

Go away to a Sweat Lodge for a day, and look how much thought has appeared here. I've got some catching-up to do!

 

[Echostatic]

I have a question about the literal Adam and Eve story - is it possible to still view this as a positive story rather than a negative one the same way myself and Wayne were saying (yes it was the end of a perfect relationship with God (while living anyways) but it's also the beginning of true free will, God knew all along we'd eat the apple, because it's impossible for us to not eat the apple at some point in our lives, so this story becomes about a gift from God, rather than a story about us failing God)?

If we interpret the account literally, may I ask why you think Adam and Eve would not have have free will before eating the fruit?

 

[AToE]

If we interpret the account literally, may I ask why you think Adam and Eve would not have have free will before eating the fruit?

They would have had free will, but with free will it is totally inevitable that they would eventually sin and get kicked out of the Garden, if they'd passed that test they would have just failed another. God would have known this obviously, and so the whole test and punishment were about teaching humanity that with free will comes the potential to cause harm, and great responsibility.

It doesn't work quite as nicely in the literal interpretation as in a symbolic interpretation, because in the symbolic we can talk about the transition into real consciousness. but I don't see any reason it doesn't work in a literal one too. Especially if we're taking the view that God knew all along what was going to happen it makes more sense to me that the whole thing would have been a lesson, not just a vengeful punishment.

That's how I'd take it anyways, with or without a literal interpretation it can still be a positive story rather than a downer about how we're all a bunch of sinners (which we are, but we're defined by ALL our actions, not just part of them in my opinion).


EDIT: I see where my last post was confusing with the "story about the beginning of free will" thing, let me rephrase that, I take it as a "story about learning the responsibility that comes with free will" (in the literal interpretation anyways).

 

[Echostatic]

I'm just having a hard time understanding why you believe their eventual failure was inevitable. I think you may be looking at them as imperfect, since you and I and everyone else on this planet are not able to fully live up to God's commandments. It can be difficult to imagine what it is like to have a perfect mind, having never had one. Who here hasn't experienced a lack of willpower from time to time?

As humans were given free will, Adam and Eve had the privelege and responsibility of making a personal decision to the course they would take. This was, indeed, a test for them. As their maker, God knew what he wanted of them, and from scriptures like Deuteronomy 30:15,16, 1 Chronicles 28:9. 29:17 and John 4:23,24 it's clear that he wanted worship and service that came from the hearts and minds, motivated by genuine love, not an automatic, mechanical obedience. Their willingness to respect God's right to govern them and set laws could be displayed by their obeying the command to not eat that fruit.

There is also the Biblical example of Jesus, who proved that a perfect man can, in fact, stay unselfishly loyal to God. He passed every test that Satan put before him throughout his life right up to his death (which could have been avoided if he had been looking after his own interests.) Jesus never once sinned or made a mistake, in heaven or on earth.

 

[Chevette Girl]

I'm just having a hard time understanding why you believe their eventual failure was inevitable. I think you may be looking at them as imperfect, since you and I and everyone else on this planet are not able to fully live up to God's commandments. It can be difficult to imagine what it is like to have a perfect mind, having never had one. Who here hasn't experienced a lack of willpower from time to time?

There is also the Biblical example of Jesus, who proved that a perfect man can, in fact, stay unselfishly loyal to God. He passed every test that Satan put before him throughout his life right up to his death (which could have been avoided if he had been looking after his own interests.) Jesus never once sinned or made a mistake, in heaven or on earth.

One perfect person. One. Out of how many people have been born on this planet?? I think that because we have free will, we can't be perfect. We will always make mistakes and hurt others, even without meaning to.

 

[Echostatic]

One perfect person. One. Out of how many people have been born on this planet?? I think that because we have free will, we can't be perfect. We will always make mistakes and hurt others, even without meaning to.

Keep in mind, though, that there have only been three perfect humans, and because the first perfect humans sinned, that sin was passed on to all other humans. Romans 5:12 states that much. "That is why, just as through one man (Adam) sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned"

This is why we are all imperfect. As an illustration, imagine a new, pristine bread pan. That bread pan is banged against a corner, so that it gets a dent in the side. Any bread you try to make with that pan will carry that imperfection in it. Likewise, when the first human pair sinned, they lost their perfection. They would be unable to produce perfect offspring.

 

[TheAlchemist]

... imagine a new, pristine bread pan...

So sorry...I read this and thought it said "imagine a new bedpan..."

 

[AToE]

Jesus doesn't really count, he was God.

I don't think a perfect mind is possible, but that's something we can always dissagree on! Just my personal view, a huge part of being human to me is trying to be as good as you can dispite your failings, if you'd already acheived perfection you might as well just head off to nirvana.

I don't think Adam and Eve had a chance. The apple test would have been easy to pass, but there are many things in life that the human (non-perfect anyways) mind simply cannot truely unwravel the full ramifications to even figure out whether it's right or wrong.

EDIT: I also don't really agree with the moral message of children carrying the sins of their parents, but that's obviously not going to be up for debate I imagine!

 

[TheAlchemist]

...
The question I've heard many times is, if men and women were to be equals then why is women presented...as secondary (tertiary actually)?

For me, a real sea change occurred when I read The Chalice and the Blade.

We are discussing here primarily Western religion and thought. But pre-bronze age faith practices were very different.

I wish there were a scholar of Religious History here who could offer a track on the subject of creation mythology from other eras and cultures. (Hmmm...and isn't it interesting that when I refer to The Ancients I call it "mythology" but when I talk of current Western thought I refer to "faith?" Wasn't it "faith" for them back then? The way we use language shapes the way we think...)

What, for example, of the sects of African animism whose creation mythology revolves around the Earth Mother whose bowel movement becomes our world? What of Greek or Norse creation mythology? How do the Hindus or Buddhists say we all got here? What do the Native Americans say?

 

[Echostatic]

Jesus doesn't really count, he was God.

I don't think a perfect mind is possible, but that's something we can always dissagree on! Just my personal view, a huge part of being human to me is trying to be as good as you can dispite your failings, if you'd already acheived perfection you might as well just head off to nirvana.

I don't think Adam and Eve had a chance. The apple test would have been easy to pass, but there are many things in life that the human (non-perfect anyways) mind simply cannot truely unwravel the full ramifications to even figure out whether it's right or wrong.

EDIT: I also don't really agree with the moral message of children carrying the sins of their parents, but that's obviously not going to be up for debate I imagine!

Of course, we can always agree to disagree on anything. I'm not here trying to force anyone to accept my beliefs, just trying my best to explain what is within the Bible.

As for children carrying the sins of their parents, it might be a little more understandable to consider the scientific fact that, even now, children may inherit defects or diseases from their parents. The children are not personally at fault, but may still suffer as a result of what they inhereted.

As for Adam and Eve not having a chance, I find it interesting you think the apple test could have been easy. Think about why it would have been easy. God plainly and clearly told Adam not to eat the fruit, and he explained what the consequences of doing so would be. The world we live in today is vastly different from what it could have been if the original human pair had stayed faithful, naturally. Isn't it only reasonable to assume that God would have fully explained anything else he expected of humans, making the consequences obvious?

As for Jesus not counting due to being God... I'm hoping I don't ruffle any feathers with this (like that's possible), but Jesus and God being one and the same is actually not a belief supported by scripture. I can back that up if needed, of course.

 

[TheAlchemist]

I don't know, Alan....
Are you sure you're not ever "tempted" by the thought that there might be a creator out there?

Jesus doesn't really count, he was God.


You Go, Wayne! Good call...

 

[TheAlchemist]

... And yes, the Bible has been twisted to justify a lot of terrible things in history, beyond the mistreatment of women.

...However, Jesus set the example in proper treatment of women....

Yes, Jesus did revolutionize the role of women within the context of the prevailing Patriarchy of the time. For example, the risen Christ first revealed himself as resurrected to women (rather than men) at a time in history when a woman's testimony was not accepted in court.

But, as developed in Chalice & Blade, Matriarchy preceeded Patriarchy....

 

[Chevette Girl]

As for Jesus not counting due to being God... I'm hoping I don't ruffle any feathers with this (like that's possible), but Jesus and God being one and the same is actually not a belief supported by scripture. I can back that up if needed, of course.

And somehow this doesn't contradict the one and only one god part, which if I recall, is one of the BIG ONES? I hear the name Jesus uttered in worship far more often than God's name, as much as I love getting cut off by the minivan with the WWJD bumper sticker ... Ok, maybe just a little bit of feather-ruffling intended here, I could be a tad bitter because I never understood that part when they tried to explain it to me in school. If anyone's got a good explanation, I'm listening.

And yes, Jesus was the son of God (who is perfect and had never sinned) so he could be perfect, right?

 

[Echostatic]

Many people do believe that they are one and the same (obviously) and as I said before, I don't want to offend anyone. So if anyone reading this believes that they are, feel free to ignore everything I say.

The evidence lies in Jesus' own words. If Jesus and God are the same person, they would have to be equal. However, as Jesus said in John 14:28, "The Father is greater than I am."Jesus also explained that there were some things that neither he nor the angels knew, but that were known only by God. (Mark 13:32) If Jesus and God were one and the same, how could God know something that Jesus could not? Jesus also prayed to his father "let, not my will, but yours take place." (Luke 22:42) Who was Jesus praying to if not someone superior to him? And again, if they are the same person, how could their wills differ? And it was God who resurrected Jesus from death, not Jesus himself. (Acts 2:32)

Scripturally, then God and Jesus are two distinct individuals. Some scriptures have been used to show evidence that the opposite is true, though, which would be contradictory. A closer look at their meaning reveals the true meaning though.

One such scripture is John 10:30, "I and the Father are one." On the surface, this does seem it could support the notion that they were one entity. However, several chapters later, Jesus showed what he meant by his being "one" with the Father. Looking at John 17:21,22 we see him in prayer. He asks God that his disciples "may all be one, just as you, Father, are in union with me and I am in union with you, that they also may be in union with us ... that they may be one just as we are one." Jesus was praying that his disciples would, not become a single entity, but be united in thought and purpose, as he and God were. The Greek word used for "one" is neuter, literally "one thing", indicating oneness in cooperation. It's the same word Jesus used at John 10:30 to describe his relationship with his Father. It's also the same Greek word Jesus used at John 17:21,22.

In the interest of keeping this from getting too long, I'll just mention one more scrupture sometimes used in support of God and Jesus being one. In John 5:18, it says that the Jews wanted to kill Jesus because "he was also calling God his own Father, making himself equal to God." However, it was not Jesus saying he was making himself equal to God. He defended himself against this false charge in the next verse. (John 5:19) "To this accusation Jesus replied: ... ‘the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees the Father doing.'" Jesus showed that he was not equal to God and, therefore, could not act on his own initiative. It's hard to imagine someone equal to Almighty God saying that he could "do nothing by himself.", especially when comparing Daniel 4:34,35.

 

[Chevette Girl]

And somehow this doesn't contradict the one and only one god part, which if I recall, is one of the BIG ONES?

Sorry, I was referring to the first two commandments that thou shalt have and worship only one god, God. But a lot of Christians seem to focus their worship on Jesus.

 

[Pewter_of_Deodar]

Random inserts into the ongoing discussion

Couple of random comments that seem to fit here and there in the tomes of posts that are being written...

According to the Bible:

1. We are conceived in sin and thus sinners from the time our lives begin.

But...

2. Sin is passed through the seed of the father.

Take heart ladies. This is why Jesus, who had a human mother and God/Holy Spirit for a father could be different and live a sinless life.

3. There is an "age of accountability" though the Bible really does not tell us exactly when that is.

The best example is David and Bathsheba's child, conceived while her husband was alive and before David sent him to his death in battle. The child was born deathly sick and for the few days he lived David wore ashes and sackcloth and prayed for his recovery. But once the child died, he got up, wiped himself off, and went about his business to the astonishment of others. When asked why he was not still in mourning, David answered that the child had gone to be where David would go to be, which I assume to be heaven.

4. The thief on the cross next to Jesus fulfilled all of the requirements to go to heaven that day.

While I believe that believers should get baptized, and go to church, and do a lot of other things, I always keep this fact in the back of my mind when someone starts saying I HAVE TO DO something in order to be saved.

And on the topic we have generally been discussing about evolution/creation and unexplainable things...

5. There is enough evidence of God in His creation that every person is held accountable for recognizing His existence.

And finally on the thought of people that are never told about Jesus and their fate in eternity.

6. Abraham believed in God and his faith was reckoned as salvation.

So proper faith in God (and do not ask me to define what that is) will save someone that has not heard about Jesus. Also it appears that blood sacrifices by the high priest, prior to the destruction of the temple, were also a method.

My ten cents worth for this morning...

 

[Pewter_of_Deodar]

Sorry, I was referring to the first two commandments that thou shalt have and worship only one god, God. But a lot of Christians seem to focus their worship on Jesus.

The Trinity, three Gods yet One, is one of the great mysteries. So is understanding the nature of God. I tend to think of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as being three manifestations of the same God. The "Jesus" manifestation of God was the one sent to provide an example and then die as a sacrifice for humanity. The "Spirit" manifestation is the one that supposedly speaks to our souls and provides encouragement, conviction, etc. The "Father" manifestation is the old bearded guy that sits on the throne and will judge us after we die. At least that is how I think of it...