What have you been reading?

[AToE]

AToE, I'd like to hear your opinion of the new Dune books... I've read the original about 20 times (and the original series about 3 times). I used to have a first print of Dune that an ex gave to me as a xmas gift but it got ruined (read: destroyed, obliterated) in a flood :crybaby2:.

Alright, but I warned you!

Ok, here's the scoop. I'm going to outline this for everyone who's not up on this business, you (who've read them) obviously will know what I'm talking about.

You have the first 3 books, Dune, Dune Messiah and Children of Dune. These were what Frank Herbert had originally envisioned as the full story (dispite the fact that Leto II's "Golden Path" isn't explained at all in the 3rd book, FH apparently wanted to originally leave it entirely up to people's imaginations. It's fairly obvious that the GP is some sort of plan to save the human race, but nothing is said about it's details) This is sort of a Lord of the Rings situation, FH thought of those 3 books as truely being just 1 book.

Then there's God Emperor of Dune, basically a standalone in the "timeline" of the original 6 books. This is generally the favourite book of Dune scholars for it's insane depth, and frankly some of the best characterization work ever done by any author when looking at the character of the God Emperor himself. This books is set thousands of years after the first 3. (More of the Golden Path is explained in this book, but it's not really fully understandable until the next book... even then it requires serious thought to decypher)

Then we have Heretics of Dune and Chapterhouse Dune, set around 1500 years IIRC after GEoD, and a fairly big departure in style from the earlier books. The story at the end of Chapterhouse is debatably a cliffhanger, though many do agree it would be a fine ending in and of itself. (Also of note is that FH essentially wrote the last 3 books because he was offered just insane amounts of money to do so, we have this from a good friend of his (the chap who authored the Dune Encyclopedia), but that in no way diminished what amazing works of art they are, especially GEoD).

FH did intend to write a final 7th book to finish the plotline of Heretics and Chapterhouse, but sadly died before making any real progress on it.


Fast forward to 11 years ago. Frank Herberts son, Brian, claims to find a lockbox containing outlines for book 7 (never has been released, dispite much heartfelt pleading with the HLP, the folks who own the rights to Dune. I've personally been involved in much of this struggle with the HLP over the last 4 or 5 years). He brings on another author to help him write new books, Kevin J Anderson, an author known quite frankly for writing in universes he didn't create (Star Wars, Batman, Starcraft, etc... man I think the Star Wars people almost dispise him more than we do!) and ruining them (super-Jedi, storylines that contract and mock other authors from the series' work, 100% flat characterization, bad plots, bad everything. He's all about pew-pew lazer fights, evil robots, bad guys with names that sound evil, and above all else, ever escallating super-weapons).

They decided to release many books before writing Dune 7 itself.

The results started out fairly mediocre with the release of the House series, which takes place basically right before the original Dune trilogy. There were loads and loads of inconsistancies (these 2 do zero work checking their stuff against the original books), weak writing, but nothing to get too crazy about.

Then we have the Legends series, which is set back during the Butlerian Jihad (meant to be a battle against the machine mentality that robs us of our humanity, those humans who use machines to enslave other humans, etc, it was to be a serious philosophical war.... KJA and BH made it into a Terminator style story). This series was the first of theirs I personally read after the original 6 books, and I honestly almost cried because it was so bad, I hadn't yet learned to dispise the new authors, it was just that bad.

This Legends series is also where they set up the plot for the finale of FH's original series, Dune 7 (I know, that makes no sense right? Without spoiling their horrible ending, let's just say it makes actually LESS than no sense!).

PART TWO OF MY EPIC RANT COMING NEXT

 

[AToE]

AND ON WITH MY RANT!

Ok, so that series was bad, really bad, like epic bad. Seriously I have read better writing from Jr High students, no hyperbole!

Then we have Dune 7... oh lords what have KJA and BH done?! (You'll notice KJA's name is always first in my naming of them, he is believed to essentially do all the writing. Where Frank Herbert put years into his books, KJA puts WEEKS. I'm not kidding, he's very proud of how he can write 14 books a year and brags about it all the time).

They split it into 2 books, and just utterly destroy all the great characters FH created, completely contradict the original books in at least 1 way per page (actually contradict their own writing sometimes too...), and worst of all, they utterly destroy all the deep philosophy of FH's books. (For those who haven't read them, the Dune series is DEEPLY philosophical, polical and social commentary are huge in them, ecology, use of religion, the depth is nearly endless. Almost a half a century later we're still unwraveling all the secret messages in the books).

When I read that final book it was the first time in my life I actually regretted having read a book.

Then they wrote a couple books that fit INBETWEEN the books of the original series by FH, because apparently those books needed extra explaining. (They also put in a little jab us naysayers by putting a line into one of the latest books that says all their contradictions take precidence over FH's original books, they've now changed it so that FH's books are "in universe histories" and are innaccurate... so any time they say a character's hair was blonde and FH said black, they're right, FH was wrong. Again, I'm NOT making this up...) This series of "interquils" flopped and they have abandoned it, though they claim it wasn't due to sales drops, and that they will return to it.

Now they're writing stories going back to just after the Jihad, about how the Bene Gesserit formed, the Mentats, the Spacing Guild, etc. I'm sure they'll be just awesome. (Also interesting to note, that FH wrote 6 Dune books, to date they have written 11 including the one about to be released, total including those they've announced they will write will bring the total of their books to I think 15, and then after that it's hoped that they just might, MIGHT stop)



Anyways, sorry for the rant. I am very personally involved with this, I've spoken over the internet with FH's grandson Byron many times (he runs the offical Dune forum, which is pretty much a dead forum, maybe a handful of posts a week), we started as friends, then politely dissagreed with eachother, then he banned me (and a lot of others) from that website. We now all post and chat about Dune at www.jacurutu.com

This goes deeper than just disliking the new books. Their refusal to release the "notes" is very bad, basically an admittance that if any notes exist they certainly didn't follow them. They have also committed many agressive and unwarranted acts against Dune fans who never uttered a single negative word about the new books (an amateur film group in Spain made a fan film of Dune, took them years, they were planning on just releasing it for free... the HLP sent their lawyers after them, threatened to ruin their lives if they released it and made them also remove all trailers, pictures, ANYTHING from the internet itself...).

There's a lot more too this, and I'm sure they have their side as well, and I'm sure Byron is a great person who's just caught between his family and us (we're known as the OH, the "Orthodox Herbertarians) - he's actually hinted several times that he also is not happy with what has been done to a once revered work of art, but cannot say so publicly.

They basically drew all over the Mona Lisa with crayons, or turned a great Mozzart piece into a piece of pop music, or served out McDonalds calling it fine French cuisine.

 

[MattHollingsworth]

Ooh, I guess I should read that too then, I saw the title on my e-reader. When I'm done with Sherlock Holmes, maybe. (I keep asking myself, why didn't they have us read stuff like that in high school English classes instead of the dreck I remember, The Red Pony, ugh, haven't ever been able to bring myself to read anything else by Steinbeck since, although later in high school when they made us read a horrible novel, I'd go track down something esle by the same author to see if it was ALL dreck or if my school board just chose a dud)

Of Mice and Men and East of Eden by Steinbeck are really great.

 

[MattHollingsworth]

Ha yes, got my attention for sure! A Thing of Eternity is indeed basically what you get if you take the Arabic Shai Hulud and put it into English. I'm something of an amateur Dune scholar and collector. Don't get me started on the new books though, just don't!

On other notes, awesome to see so many people with similar tastes! The Ender series is one I've always meant to get into, I've read one other book by Card and it was awesome - it says a lot about just how good an author is when I can personally dislike the author very much, but still am able to fully enjoy his works! (Unlike Goodkind, who first off I simply got bored of his books when they stopped being books and started being political/social rants that repeated the same statements at least 5-10 times per books, but I kept reading his stuff because I had fond memories of the first 4 books or so... but then I got to know about him as a person and it just ruined it for me... so my advice is simply stay away from learning about him or reading any interviews, and keep enjoying the books!).

A Song of Ice and Fire is awesome, loving it, can't wait for the 5th book.

Clockwork Orange was a killer book too, I've been meaning to re-read it, as I didn't really figure out the language until part way in, so the beginning was a little lost on me, should make more sense next time around!

Other really awesome SF authors:

Iain M Banks - wow, just wow. Start with Player of Games and just read them at random from that point on. Not what my fav of his is yet, either Use of Weapons, or Excession.

Karl Schroeder - killer new(-ish, last 10 years) high-tech SF author, seriously mind exploding stuff. I'd start with Permanence for a more Arthur C Clarke vibe, Lady of Mazes for a "down the rabbit hole" vibe, and if you'd prefer more pulp "entertainment" SF rather than "art" SF, his Virgo series which starts with Sun of Suns is just killer, takes place in a setting so interesting the stories could be about the characters doing laundry and it'd still be rivetting!

Cordwainer Smith - not as well known now as he was way way back when he was writing, but a truely whacky author who's probably one of the best I've ever read. Check out the short story Scanners Live in Vain, the first he published under that name.

Boy, I could go on for hours. ;D

Thanks for all the book ideas.

As for the Dune books written by others, I would always shy away from sequels written by someone other than the original writer. Just doesn't seem like a good idea. Wasn't surprised to read what you said about them. As for me, I've only read the first 3 of the original series. Haven't started the last 3 yet.

 

[AToE]

The best way I've heard the new books described, is imagine if someone wrote a sequel to LoTR where it turned out the moral of the story was all wrong, humans actually need to go get that ring back, power doesn't corrupt.

Chris Tolkien has done a perfect job though, he's released all the notes, he's made stories out of them yes, but truely to the best of his ability, and he's been totally transparent about the process. He's actually out to preserve his father's legacy.

 

[kudapucat]

kudapucat, Ship of Destiny is the last in the Liveship Traders Trilogy. I have liked this trilogy quite a bit which is what is leading me toward the Farseer Trilogy (assassin's apprentice). I'm certainly interested in the rest of her books, Ill have to see if the library has them.

I'll look on the shelf later and see if I can't find the series I mean.

 

[TheAlchemist]

On the Steinbeck subject, I loved Grapes of Wrath. It answers the question "Why are there Labor Unions?" pretty well. The Pearl, an interesting morality tale. Cannery Row wasn't my favorite. Adored Travels with Charley, though...imagine an author being able to travel incognito in the age of the internet...that would be a challenge.

 

[Medsen Fey]

When I read that final book it was the first time in my life I actually regretted having read a book.

When I'm done with Sherlock Holmes, maybe.

I love Sherlock Holmes stories. They are great. Arthur Conan Doyle was a physician and they say the character of Holmes was patterned off a medical professor that Doyle trained with. Apparently this physician was an astute observer, and when presented with a new patient, he could look at the person's hands, clothes, and face and be able to tell you all kinds of things about their work and habits.

AToE, what you said made me chuckle as I remember a line from Sherlock Holmes where he says:

"You see," he explained, "I consider that a man's brain originally is like a little empty attic, and you have to stock it with such furniture as you choose. A fool takes in all the lumber of every sort that he comes across, so that the knowledge which might be useful to him gets crowded out, or at best is jumbled up with a lot of other things so that he has a difficulty in laying his hands upon it. Now the skilful workman is very careful indeed as to what he takes into his brain-attic. He will have nothing but the tools which may help him in doing his work, but of these he has a large assortment, and all in the most perfect order. It is a mistake to think that that little room has elastic walls and can distend to any extent. Depend upon it there comes a time when for every addition of knowledge you forget something that you knew before. It is of the highest importance, therefore, not to have useless facts elbowing out the useful ones."

I suppose that same rule applies to bad literature, and one has to be careful what one puts in one's brain. You can't get it back out. ;D

So it is with some small embarrassment that I have to confess that I just finished reading "Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows." I'd read all the others and figured I should finish the story. I've been troubled by the dark turn this series took after the 3rd book and I really didn't enjoy books 5 and 6. This one was better, but I'm kind of glad the story is over (at least I hope it is).

 

[TheAlchemist]

I love Sherlock Holmes stories. They are great. Arthur Conan Doyle was a physician and they say the character of Holmes was patterned off a medical professor that Doyle trained with. Apparently this physician was an astute observer, and when presented with a new patient, he could look at the person's hands, clothes, and face and be able to tell you all kinds of things about their work and habits.


So it is with some small embarrassment that I have to confess that I just finished reading "Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows." I'd read all the others and figured I should finish the story. I've been troubled by the dark turn this series took after the 3rd book and I really didn't enjoy books 5 and 6. This one was better, but I'm kind of glad the story is over (at least I hope it is).

I adore physician authors. Somerset Maugham, Walker Percy, Lewis Thomas...

Are you gearing up for the final Harry Potter film?

 

[Chevette Girl]

Of Mice and Men and East of Eden by Steinbeck are really great.

I'll have to take your word on it, can't make myself do it... maybe a couple more years and I'll get over The Red Pony...

And I think being forced to submit to The Great Gatsby (they made us watch the movie too, ughhhh) turned me right off reading any more of his as well... Sorry, Caffeine211, I just can't make myself be interested in that era... I'm no good reading books where I have no respect for / no interest in any of the characters, had the same problem with Gone With The Wind, Sense and Sensibility and Bonfire of the Vanities, all books I read because I thought I should, since they're supposed to be classics and I've had people tell me how great they were... For some reason I was OK with To Kill a Mockingbird...

So it is with some small embarrassment that I have to confess that I just finished reading "Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows." I'd read all the others and figured I should finish the story. I've been troubled by the dark turn this series took after the 3rd book and I really didn't enjoy books 5 and 6. This one was better, but I'm kind of glad the story is over (at least I hope it is).

You know, I did find some of the later books to be disturbingly dark, now that you mention it... I enjoyed the story overall, but some parts were really depressing. I very much enjoyed the first book and because I like the characters, I had to find out what happens to them

 

[AToE]

I
AToE, what you said made me chuckle as I remember a line from Sherlock Holmes where he says:

Ha, that reminds me of an Einstein quote where he says something like "never memorize anything you can just look up later"!


If you want to avoid dark stories I'd stay far away from A Song of Ice and Fire (Game of Thrones being the first book). I read a lot of dark stuff, and that series seems to outdo pretty much everything else I've read by a long shot.




Also, in case anyone thinks I'm nuts because of that Dune rant, understand the bulk of the conflict happened years ago, I'm not angry anymore, just a little sad. Some people are still in a rage though, they're not letting go any time soon!

 

[caffeine211]

When I read that final book it was the first time in my life I actually regretted having read a book.

Well that was a little more intense than I expected but yeah... I read them just because but it was brutal.

 

[TheAlchemist]

I'm no good reading books where I have no respect for / no interest in any of the characters, had the same problem with...Bonfire of the Vanities... books I read because I thought I should...

I almost never decide it's OK for me to just put a book down. Permanently. Bonfire was one such exception.

 

[MattHollingsworth]

If you want to avoid dark stories I'd stay far away from A Song of Ice and Fire (Game of Thrones being the first book). I read a lot of dark stuff, and that series seems to outdo pretty much everything else I've read by a long shot.

Didn't read A Song of Ice and Fire (though saw the show, which was *ok* but not great, IMHO), but if you want really dark, read Blood Meridian or The Road by Cormac McCarthy.

;-)

 

[Oskaar]

Didn't read A Song of Ice and Fire (though saw the show, which was *ok* but not great, IMHO), but if you want really dark, read Blood Meridian or The Road by Cormac McCarthy.

;-)

I have the collected works of Edgar Allen Poe. Great, dark, inspiring and beautifully written!

Cheers,

Oskaar

 

[wildoates]

I'm not a huge fan of Poe, but nevertheless, I can't resist him, for all the reasons you state, Pete.

One of our family names is Usher--had a great great whose name was Usher Tucker, an awesome name--but none of us can bring ourselves to use it.

You know why.

 

[kudapucat]

I almost never decide it's OK for me to just put a book down. Permanently. Bonfire was one such exception.

I feel the same way... The Name of the Rose and the Simarillion are the only ones to beat me so far.

 

[MattHollingsworth]

I'll have to take your word on it, can't make myself do it... maybe a couple more years and I'll get over The Red Pony...

I've never even heard of The Red Pony, so don't think it's known as one of his better books. But I can understand the scarring from a book! ;-)

I have the collected works of Edgar Allen Poe. Great, dark, inspiring and beautifully written!

Cheers,

Oskaar

Poe's always good. Haven't read him in some years though.

 

[mccann51]

Didn't read A Song of Ice and Fire (though saw the show, which was *ok* but not great, IMHO), but if you want really dark, read Blood Meridian or The Road by Cormac McCarthy.

;-)

Don't judge the books by the show; the books have so much more depth and are far better executed. I agree, the show is "meh".

I enjoyed The Road quite a bit, definitely very dark; the basement scene was not something I had wanted to read right before heading to bed, haha. The Road is one of the few instances where I feel the movie was on par with the book.

I keep hearing about Blood Meridian and am eager to read it when I get a chance.

 

[AToE]

I thought they did a really good job on the Game of Thrones show, it's just inevitable that you can't acheive the same quality on screen. They did the best that was possible other than a few weird changes in my personal opinion.

Well that was a little more intense than I expected but yeah... I read them just because but it was brutal.

Ha... yeah that's pretty much everyone's response to the new books of those I've talked to.

That "regretted reading" comment really only applies to the final "Dune 7" book Sandworms of Dune though. The rest were really just hilarioussad flops, but that's the book where they really undid everything FH was trying to teach the readers.