Yeah I agree... add "full use of homebrew equipmewnt and ingredients" to the lease. This of course includes anything produced.
Homebrew, Bartering, and The Law
- Thread starter MrMooCow
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You can't put it in the lease since that is a business contract. It would have to be a separate obligatory contract for either the "brewing equipment" or the " Bar room" idea. As soon as it is in a business document of any type then the IRS and therefore other regulatory agencies are involved and you are selling.
Oh yeah, my labels involved a gratuity to the artist too.
Thing I really like about the gifting, is that the price is not argued, it's simply decided apon by the person who pays.
Gotta be careful though, if your gratuity is insufficient, you may piss em off, and that's no good for the future.
Thing I really like about the gifting, is that the price is not argued, it's simply decided apon by the person who pays.
Gotta be careful though, if your gratuity is insufficient, you may piss em off, and that's no good for the future.
I've been know to trade bottles for honey, and if they happen to contain anything that is probably because I forgot to check that ... ;-)
You know, I actually have to disagree slightly with your logic. The lease includes provisions for paying for utilities. If I had an arrangement in which we just split the utility bill in half, but then I used the gas appliances more then my roommate, I haven't "profited" off the "sale" of gas. From a purely logical stand point I have (he paid for X butt loads of gas, but only used X/2 butt loads, but did not receive a refund, then I basically profited), and would be in violation of US and Illinois law which requires one to be licensed to sell natural gas.
The law states that any adult can produce booze for personal and family consumption. It further states that each household that has two or more adults living in it may produce up to 200 gallons of booze. It doesn't say the household must comprise married couples or family members. Nor does it say that both adults have to be involved in the booze making.
I should think that so long as I keep good records that show how much material I purchase, how much money my roommates contribute, and maybe even how much they drink, I'd be covered.
Correction. In a logical and rational world, that would be more then enough. They may still go with your interpretation. The government is prone to long running bouts of ridiculousness.
Of course, we'll know soon. I just went ahead and sent them an e-mail. Realistically speaking, enforcement is next to impossible in this specific case. It's just a matter of whether I can actually advertise the potential arrangement or not.
Worst that happens is the ATF kicks my door in! ;D
I agree with this. As I said before because my partner and I live together then I can produce for both of our personal use even though we can't be married... But the key is I can't sell it to him.
No money can exchange, in written form, for what I make and he drinks. This is where bad things can happen. Now if its a verbal contract, thats a different story...
yes, but raw ingredients can be issued in the lease, as well as use of equipment.
Then as a member of the household he can drink the booze. But he can only buy it prior to fermenting.
Ultimately, the TTB will interpret how they will. However, I think you're making an overly aggressive interpretation. A couple of reasons:
1. As noted before, I purchase natural gas from Nicor. My roommate Brian pays me half the bill. This is written explicitly in the lease, but the State did not require me to purchase a license to sell natural gas. If I were to purchase natural gas from Nicor, and sell it to my neighbor Joe, then I would need a license.
2. What I'm suggesting is pretty much the same thing. You can drink the booze in the bar, if you pay half the material costs. In a logical universe, this is the same as saying "You can use the dryer, if you pay 1/2 the gas cost."
3. If I go to the grocery store, buy a 12 pack for $20, come home, and tell my roommate "You owe me $10 for the beer", I don't have to fear being arrested for reselling alcohol. Technically, that's what I've done. For that matter, I can throw a party, and charge people $10/head to cover the cost of food and drinks.
4. I just realized my homebrew club did exactly what I'm suggesting for their annual picnic. It was $10/person. This got you access to the picnic shelter, charcoal for the grill, and all the homebrew booze you can drink. The City of Darien didn't blink when we asked for a permit, just told us we needed to pay $10 for a liquor distribution permit and $100 for an insurance bond. Given that 30+ people attended, we clearly made a profit off of the arrangement. It was a totally public event, anyone could attend.
1. As noted before, I purchase natural gas from Nicor. My roommate Brian pays me half the bill. This is written explicitly in the lease, but the State did not require me to purchase a license to sell natural gas. If I were to purchase natural gas from Nicor, and sell it to my neighbor Joe, then I would need a license.
2. What I'm suggesting is pretty much the same thing. You can drink the booze in the bar, if you pay half the material costs. In a logical universe, this is the same as saying "You can use the dryer, if you pay 1/2 the gas cost."
3. If I go to the grocery store, buy a 12 pack for $20, come home, and tell my roommate "You owe me $10 for the beer", I don't have to fear being arrested for reselling alcohol. Technically, that's what I've done. For that matter, I can throw a party, and charge people $10/head to cover the cost of food and drinks.
4. I just realized my homebrew club did exactly what I'm suggesting for their annual picnic. It was $10/person. This got you access to the picnic shelter, charcoal for the grill, and all the homebrew booze you can drink. The City of Darien didn't blink when we asked for a permit, just told us we needed to pay $10 for a liquor distribution permit and $100 for an insurance bond. Given that 30+ people attended, we clearly made a profit off of the arrangement. It was a totally public event, anyone could attend.
That permit is a temporary liquor license similar to what a bar or restaurant needs, but on a shorter term.
Yes. Except we were also producing it, which the license can't possibly cover.
- Brett
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- Brett
Sent from my DROID2 GLOBAL using Tapatalk
I still think the question is whether they'd turn a blind eye, because I'm still very sure that if they actually decided to look this would be straight up illegal.
I think the main difference is between certain things in your lease being interpreted or not interpreted as selling goods, versus being or not being interpreted as selling a controlled substance. You're talking about the difference between someone selling their garden vegetables and being a drug dealer/manufacturer essentially (yes, that's some hyperbole indeed! But still, you see my point I think, and nothing works for making a point like some good old hyperbole! ;D)
I agree with you that what you're proposing makes perfect sense in logical-land. And if what you're proposing was looked at in terms of the raw materials, then you'd be all good - it is indeed probably just like gas for the stove or whatever - but if it was looked at by the gov in terms of the final product, then it's not so happygoodtimes.
I don't think the issue here is income tax, sales of goods or anything like that. I think the issue is selling alcohol without a liscense (dispite the great loophole you've got, they've got lawyers whos job it is to smash loopholes) and also manufacturing alcohol for sale. You've already pointed out that you know this I realize, I'm just pointing it out for anyone else reading who might accidentally go do this!
I'm not sure about the US with it's tougher laws on "drugs" but up here in Canada I could honestly see them taking this even more seriously than if you were growing weed for personal use, and putting the seeds and fertilizer (both of which I think are legal here) on your rental agreement so that your roommate could sample from the weed bar.
I think the main difference is between certain things in your lease being interpreted or not interpreted as selling goods, versus being or not being interpreted as selling a controlled substance. You're talking about the difference between someone selling their garden vegetables and being a drug dealer/manufacturer essentially (yes, that's some hyperbole indeed! But still, you see my point I think, and nothing works for making a point like some good old hyperbole! ;D)
I agree with you that what you're proposing makes perfect sense in logical-land. And if what you're proposing was looked at in terms of the raw materials, then you'd be all good - it is indeed probably just like gas for the stove or whatever - but if it was looked at by the gov in terms of the final product, then it's not so happygoodtimes.
I don't think the issue here is income tax, sales of goods or anything like that. I think the issue is selling alcohol without a liscense (dispite the great loophole you've got, they've got lawyers whos job it is to smash loopholes) and also manufacturing alcohol for sale. You've already pointed out that you know this I realize, I'm just pointing it out for anyone else reading who might accidentally go do this!
I'm not sure about the US with it's tougher laws on "drugs" but up here in Canada I could honestly see them taking this even more seriously than if you were growing weed for personal use, and putting the seeds and fertilizer (both of which I think are legal here) on your rental agreement so that your roommate could sample from the weed bar.
This is exactly the point. Can you do these things and get away? Sure. Your brew club got their permit to distribute without any questions asked, the turned a blind eye to the fact that it is illegal to sell "homebrew". The agency that controlled those permits decided "out of sight, out of mind" It happens often.
Its similar to being a member of a private club. For example the VFW (Vetrans of Foreign Wars) is a club that you pay dues to belong to yet they have bars in them that do not require a Liquor License because its a private club and "not open to the public". The still have to pay taxes though. Its still income.
Having run Catering events and parties before in my line of work, you can do this under the table and/or depends on the party. Is it legal by the letter of the law? Not really. Any "public" food has to be prepared in a registered commercial kitchen inspected by the health department if you are charging for it. Does the heath inspector run around looking for parties to bust in the suburbs? Hells no! They got the Chinese restaurant on the other side of town to inspect for rat droppings that someone reported.
So it comes down to the old additive of CYA (Cover Your Ass). If its in a written legal document then it will be available for some lawyer type to come and take a bite out of your booty! Regardless of how you interpret it it still costs a lot to get an attorney of your own and go to court even in the end you win. I surely don't have that kind of spare cash or time for some court sideshow.
Perhaps just have a bunch of freelance Quality Control Inspectors who are unpaid interns and with our modern society work out of their homes through the digital office. I mean, if you were looking to start your own meadery, say 50 or so years or so down the line when you retire, you would want to do your research ahead of time. And these interns merely wish practice their craft to ensure that their skills are up to par and it just so happens you can help them out. I mean, they are unpaid interns, the least you could do is help them keep their skills up on their paying jobs.
Right on point AToE, and I'll add do you want to run the risk of being the case that a federal inspector (read ATFE) and a federal prosecutor justify their existance and job with? Ok so you can mabe get by with it 99.9% of the time its still just plain illegal. Here in the USA getting run through the mill by the feds is not something you want. Even if you did get aquitted the cost would break you, and the federal boys play to win. I reccomend that everyone stay on the sunny side of any grey line envolving alcohol laws, the benifit to loss is just not worth it.
Jim
Jim
Thanks.
I guess my point, to put it really simply, is that while we can all (all of us without law education) look at the laws and think we've found loopholes, it's more likely that we're wrong than right by a huge margin.
Laws have loopholes yes, but they were written by lawyers for lawyers. Even when they seem simple and comprehensible to us laypeople, tiny differences in words used, order of words, etc, can mean massive differences in how the law can be applied. And even if you do find a loophole, for every loophole they've probably got 50 laws we've never even heard of specifically meant to target people they feel are guilty of "something" but have gotten away with it due to a loophole - especially when we're talking about controlled drugs.
If my lawyer friends have taught me anything, it's that if I'm ever unsure about whether what I'm doing is legal or not, and I plan on putting it in writing or getting caught, I'd better consult with them first - because if I start applying my own logic to laws I'm likely to do more damage to myself than good!
So what we're doing here is nothing more than good mental exercise, unless any of us are secretly lawyers.
I guess my point, to put it really simply, is that while we can all (all of us without law education) look at the laws and think we've found loopholes, it's more likely that we're wrong than right by a huge margin.
Laws have loopholes yes, but they were written by lawyers for lawyers. Even when they seem simple and comprehensible to us laypeople, tiny differences in words used, order of words, etc, can mean massive differences in how the law can be applied. And even if you do find a loophole, for every loophole they've probably got 50 laws we've never even heard of specifically meant to target people they feel are guilty of "something" but have gotten away with it due to a loophole - especially when we're talking about controlled drugs.
If my lawyer friends have taught me anything, it's that if I'm ever unsure about whether what I'm doing is legal or not, and I plan on putting it in writing or getting caught, I'd better consult with them first - because if I start applying my own logic to laws I'm likely to do more damage to myself than good!
So what we're doing here is nothing more than good mental exercise, unless any of us are secretly lawyers.
Well, you know the old joke, ATFE ought to be the name of a convenience store, not a gubmint agency. 
So I heard back from the TTB. The answer is......
Maybe. The guy was very, very clear that the TTB might be ok with that, but it was also possible that ATF agents would kick my door in the middle of the night and shoot me for tax evasion.
It basically all comes down to what the definition of a family is. The guy told me an apartment complex isn't a family. Great, nice to know, but I didn't ask about an apartment complex. It's a very grey area, and he isn't really sure what the answer is.
He's pretty sure no one would ever try to enforce it though. But they might. Maybe.
Friendly, but pretty unhelpful.
So I sent him some clarifying questions, we'll see if he bothers to respond to those. Essentially asked him if I was engaging in alcohol resale when I buy a six pack for $20, then get $10 from my roommate when I get home for half the pack. Same with everyone in the house chipping in on a keg. If my roommates gave me ingredients, then I gave them back the full amount of alcohol, is that selling? If my roommates helped in the making, can they then chip in on the material costs?
I'm pretty sure I know his answers. Yes, not enforced. Yes, not enforced. Maybe, possibly enforced. Yes, but I can't tell you how much they have to help.
All in all, I think I just took another step closer being a bell tower shooter. Why bother having laws you can't enforce? Why make things illegal that don't harm people? Why tell me I can't do something without a permit, but refuse to sell me the permit?
I'd pay their damned tax, I don't care about that. It's $1-$3.30/gallon, with a $0.90 credit for less then 100,000. But I'm sure if I applied for the permit, they'd tell me I'm too small.
Crony Capitalism at it's finest.
Maybe. The guy was very, very clear that the TTB might be ok with that, but it was also possible that ATF agents would kick my door in the middle of the night and shoot me for tax evasion.
It basically all comes down to what the definition of a family is. The guy told me an apartment complex isn't a family. Great, nice to know, but I didn't ask about an apartment complex. It's a very grey area, and he isn't really sure what the answer is.
He's pretty sure no one would ever try to enforce it though. But they might. Maybe.
Friendly, but pretty unhelpful.
So I sent him some clarifying questions, we'll see if he bothers to respond to those. Essentially asked him if I was engaging in alcohol resale when I buy a six pack for $20, then get $10 from my roommate when I get home for half the pack. Same with everyone in the house chipping in on a keg. If my roommates gave me ingredients, then I gave them back the full amount of alcohol, is that selling? If my roommates helped in the making, can they then chip in on the material costs?
I'm pretty sure I know his answers. Yes, not enforced. Yes, not enforced. Maybe, possibly enforced. Yes, but I can't tell you how much they have to help.
All in all, I think I just took another step closer being a bell tower shooter. Why bother having laws you can't enforce? Why make things illegal that don't harm people? Why tell me I can't do something without a permit, but refuse to sell me the permit?
I'd pay their damned tax, I don't care about that. It's $1-$3.30/gallon, with a $0.90 credit for less then 100,000. But I'm sure if I applied for the permit, they'd tell me I'm too small.
Crony Capitalism at it's finest.
Just as an example here's parts of a law (or 2 seperate laws?) regarding making and selling booze from Massachusetts.
Section 2. No person shall manufacture, with intent to sell, sell or expose or keep for sale, store, transport, import or export alcoholic beverages or alcohol, except as authorized by this chapter; but the provisions of this chapter shall not apply to sales, storage or transportation by a person or public officer under a provision of law which requires him to sell personal property, or to sales, storage or transportation by executors, administrators, receivers and trustees duly authorized by proper judicial order or decree, except that any receiver or trustee in bankruptcy or otherwise appointed by any court, who is authorized by said court to conduct in whole or in part any business, authority to grant a license for which is given by this chapter, or who does conduct any such business in whole or in part, shall be subject to all provisions of the sections under which their licenses were issued and to all other provisions of this chapter applicable to such business the same as if it were conducted by an individual, partnership or corporation. No alcoholic beverage which has been damaged by fire or other casualty may be offered for sale in the commonwealth and any such beverage shall be destroyed by the owner on such terms and conditions as the commission shall determine. Notwithstanding any other provision of this section, beer or other malt beverage, which has been determined by the alcoholic beverages control commission, to have been damaged by fire or other casualty shall not be offered for sale in the commonwealth and shall be destroyed by the owner on such terms and conditions as said commission shall determine. Any holder of a license under this chapter may pledge or mortgage to secure a loan or debt any alcoholic beverages or alcohol which he is authorized to sell and the pledgee or mortgagee acting in conformity with the terms of such pledge or mortgage may sell, store and transport such alcoholic beverages or alcohol subject to such conditions and restrictions as the commission may prescribe; provided, that no such pledge or mortgage shall be given or made to a person holding any interest in a business licensed under this chapter. Violation of any provision of this section shall be punished except as provided in section twenty-two by a fine of not less than one hundred nor more than one thousand dollars or by imprisonment for not more than one year, or both.
Section 3. This chapter shall not apply to the manufacture or storage of alcoholic beverages by a person for his own private use or to sales of cider at wholesale by the original makers thereof, or to sales of cider by farmers, not to be drunk on the premises, in quantities not exceeding in the aggregate the product of apples raised by them in the season of, or next preceding, such sales, or to sales of cider in any quantity by such farmers not to be drunk on the premises if such cider does not contain more than three per cent of alcohol by weight at sixty degrees Fahrenheit; nor shall this chapter apply to sales of cider by the original makers thereof other than such makers and farmers selling not to be drunk on the premises as aforesaid, if the cider does not contain more than three per cent alcohol as aforesaid, not to be drunk on the premises as aforesaid.
I'm not saying these laws are the relevant ones, I'm saying look at this gibberish!! I couldn't even really tell which laws were the relevant ones on their list, and to try to read them all to figure it out would take a year, I think there was nearly (or maybe more than) 100 sections, some longer than these some shorter.
Laws are confusing business. EDIT: Just saw MMC's last post, I'm not surprised their own staff don't even know!
Why make things illegal that don't hurt anyone? Law isn't morality, it masquerades as morality, but in reality it takes wild departures from it all the time. In the words of my uncle (a cop): "there's a reason they call it the Legal System, not the Justice System". ;D
Section 2. No person shall manufacture, with intent to sell, sell or expose or keep for sale, store, transport, import or export alcoholic beverages or alcohol, except as authorized by this chapter; but the provisions of this chapter shall not apply to sales, storage or transportation by a person or public officer under a provision of law which requires him to sell personal property, or to sales, storage or transportation by executors, administrators, receivers and trustees duly authorized by proper judicial order or decree, except that any receiver or trustee in bankruptcy or otherwise appointed by any court, who is authorized by said court to conduct in whole or in part any business, authority to grant a license for which is given by this chapter, or who does conduct any such business in whole or in part, shall be subject to all provisions of the sections under which their licenses were issued and to all other provisions of this chapter applicable to such business the same as if it were conducted by an individual, partnership or corporation. No alcoholic beverage which has been damaged by fire or other casualty may be offered for sale in the commonwealth and any such beverage shall be destroyed by the owner on such terms and conditions as the commission shall determine. Notwithstanding any other provision of this section, beer or other malt beverage, which has been determined by the alcoholic beverages control commission, to have been damaged by fire or other casualty shall not be offered for sale in the commonwealth and shall be destroyed by the owner on such terms and conditions as said commission shall determine. Any holder of a license under this chapter may pledge or mortgage to secure a loan or debt any alcoholic beverages or alcohol which he is authorized to sell and the pledgee or mortgagee acting in conformity with the terms of such pledge or mortgage may sell, store and transport such alcoholic beverages or alcohol subject to such conditions and restrictions as the commission may prescribe; provided, that no such pledge or mortgage shall be given or made to a person holding any interest in a business licensed under this chapter. Violation of any provision of this section shall be punished except as provided in section twenty-two by a fine of not less than one hundred nor more than one thousand dollars or by imprisonment for not more than one year, or both.
Section 3. This chapter shall not apply to the manufacture or storage of alcoholic beverages by a person for his own private use or to sales of cider at wholesale by the original makers thereof, or to sales of cider by farmers, not to be drunk on the premises, in quantities not exceeding in the aggregate the product of apples raised by them in the season of, or next preceding, such sales, or to sales of cider in any quantity by such farmers not to be drunk on the premises if such cider does not contain more than three per cent of alcohol by weight at sixty degrees Fahrenheit; nor shall this chapter apply to sales of cider by the original makers thereof other than such makers and farmers selling not to be drunk on the premises as aforesaid, if the cider does not contain more than three per cent alcohol as aforesaid, not to be drunk on the premises as aforesaid.
I'm not saying these laws are the relevant ones, I'm saying look at this gibberish!! I couldn't even really tell which laws were the relevant ones on their list, and to try to read them all to figure it out would take a year, I think there was nearly (or maybe more than) 100 sections, some longer than these some shorter.
Laws are confusing business. EDIT: Just saw MMC's last post, I'm not surprised their own staff don't even know!
Why make things illegal that don't hurt anyone? Law isn't morality, it masquerades as morality, but in reality it takes wild departures from it all the time. In the words of my uncle (a cop): "there's a reason they call it the Legal System, not the Justice System". ;D
They're not enforceable because they just don't care. Because what you're doing shouldn't be illegal.
What you're doing is illegal because of a coupel of reasons.
Things that should be illegal, have laws with loopholes.
These laws that bother you are filling in the loopholes.
You simply don't matter enough to modify the laws for. You're too small. Laws only get changed for those with money or power. That's why poor powerless ppl need to arrange big protests to gain power.
So that's why they turn a blind eye. You start doing something bad though, which is hard to prosecute you for, they'll get you for this thing they were turning a blind eye to, just like they got Al Capone on Tax Evasion. (wild example, but I think it suits)
If you piss somebody off and they discover this, they could have a go just to teach you a lesson. "Turning a blind eye" is like blackmail. You have to be Squeeky clean in all else, or else!
