For all you sanitization freaks :d

[Msarro]

Honestly, you need to remember what is happening when you brew. You're essentially creating a big batch of food for some foreign organism to eat. In science we call it a substrate (same with mycology). And usually you have enough yeast that it will take on its own, and it will quickly overcome any invaders.

However, some times the invaders outnumber the yeast, and when that happens you'll get vinegar.

Still other times you'll get invaders and they'll ultimately get overtaken by yeast, but not before byproducts of their eating sugar get put into the brew. Now I know this usually doesn't happen with brewing, but when growing mushrooms it can be deadly (chemicals produced by, say, black mold can be transferred by the good mushrooms and become dangerous to eat).

So, I'll stick with sanitation. This is one time I trust the science.

 

[Penguinetti]

Honestly, you need to remember what is happening when you brew. You're essentially creating a big batch of food for some foreign organism to eat. In science we call it a substrate (same with mycology). And usually you have enough yeast that it will take on its own, and it will quickly overcome any invaders.

However, some times the invaders outnumber the yeast, and when that happens you'll get vinegar.

Still other times you'll get invaders and they'll ultimately get overtaken by yeast, but not before byproducts of their eating sugar get put into the brew. Now I know this usually doesn't happen with brewing, but when growing mushrooms it can be deadly (chemicals produced by, say, black mold can be transferred by the good mushrooms and become dangerous to eat).

So, I'll stick with sanitation. This is one time I trust the science.

From this quote, I got this:

That brew is a warzone between yeasts and outsiders. Warzones are always littered with casualties. Casualties will eff up your brew.


So make brew, not war.

 

[shanek17]

an interesting article im reading now that goes along with what im talking about in this thread...really I should just make a whole new thread regarding the natural integrity of mead!...maybe if i can find some time ill make this thread, im sure there are others with tidbits to share on this subject. As you can notice below they mention hydrogen peroxide in honey...hmmmm when i researched sanitizers I came across hydrogen peroxide many times, thats interesting and its naturally found in honey.

Composition of Honey

We are all likely familiar with honey as a sweetener. As meadmakers, it helps us to know that honey is around 80% sugars, with glucose and fructose being the most abundant. It also contains other sugars — including maltose and sucrose — in smaller percentages. Honey contains acids, most notably gluconic acid, and has a low pH — ranging from 3.4–6.1 and averaging 3.9. The protein content of the honey and water mixture that becomes mead is very low, so yeast nutrients are needed to ensure proper yeast health. The water content of honey varies from 15 to 20%, with most examples hovering around 17%. The low amount of water is sufficient to suppress the growth of most potentially contaminating microorganisms.

Honey is made by honey bees (Apis mellifera) and few other species of bees. Worker bees visit flowers and gather nectar, a dilute sucrose solution. In their crop (the sac that holds the nectar), most of the sucrose is split into fructose and glucose by an enzyme called invertase. A second enzyme, glucose oxidase, converts some of the glucose into gluconic acid and hydrogen peroxide.

Mead: From Nectar to Nirvana

https://winemakermag.com/stories/article/indices/27-meadmaking/497-mead-from-nectar-to-nirvana

 

[Midnight Sun]

While I did not know that honey naturally has hydrogen peroxide, it is fairly common knowledge that honey has a number of antiseptic qualities. Thus eliminating the need to sterilize honey before usage.

One major antiseptic component is the high concentration of sugars. This is basically identical to the mechanism behind salted meats in the days of yore. A microorganism lands in the honey. The honey has a higher concentration of sugar than the liquid contained in the cell walls. Water migrates out of the cell wall and into the honey, causing either dormancy or death of the cell. Pretty neat I think!

Now, let's say you take your honey and mix it with treated water. I would readily argue that for all intents and purposes the must initially has a very low microorganism count, at least if you mix and store using sanitized components. I would also argue, however, that you have just made bug food, as you have diluted the sugars and other natural antiseptics to a level where microorganisms can now thrive. Microorganisms landing in your bug food are going to start chowing down and multiplying. And these microorganisms don't necessarily have to be yeast.

The point I'm trying to make is, there are no special antiseptic qualities to mead that aren't similar to other fermented beverages.

 

[Chevette Girl]

The point I'm trying to make is, there are no special antiseptic qualities to mead that aren't similar to other fermented beverages.

Exactly. I think we had this discussion before last year or the year before, the end result is that the dilution does pretty much nix the antiseptic qualities of honey. I did a search on "antiseptic" and this one came up, I think it's the one.

And it doesn't take much to tip the balance either, I once put about a tablespoon of boiled water into one of those honey bears (about half-full, so maybe a cup of honey?) because it had crystallized, and it went moldy a few months later.

 

[Penguinetti]

an interesting article im reading now that goes along with what im talking about in this thread...hmmmm when i researched sanitizers I came across hydrogen peroxide many times, thats interesting and its naturally found in honey...

I would like it if you could do me one and entertain this idea for me. Make a hypothesis of what you're trying to say (that we shouldn't sanitize or that honey is a sanitizer or whatever it is that this thread is ultimately going for). Then purposefully, deliberately, and with effort, try to debunct your own hypothesis.

Debate it with yourself, and see if you can change your own mind.

 

[Soyala_Amaya]

The water content of honey varies from 15 to 20%, with most examples hovering around 17%. The low amount of water is sufficient to suppress the growth of most potentially contaminating microorganisms.

This right here is really the key point. The second you add more water to honey, the potential for the growth of micro-organisms grow. It is, in it's most basic terms, exactly what we are doing with mead. Diluting the honey with enough water so the yeast (a type of fungus) can grow. This can happen in wild hives after a good rain too. There are some historians who believe that wild fermented honey was one of the first introductions of alcohol to humanity.

So yes...honey is very sanitary all alone. However, we are not leaving it alone. It is no longer JUST honey.

 

[Wingnut]

You know, this is just an observation, and I am really new to this Mead Making.
I was planning to give some of my "project" to friends and family. Just as a nice thing to do, homemade Mead, bring it to a BBQ or friends house, etc.
I would feel really really bad if I just happen to give a gift to someone and it ended up being bad or even worse it made someone ill. (Just shoot me)
Especially if I could have avoided it, if I was ensuring good sanitation practices while I worked.

Why take a chance? It isn't hard.
If you would like to think some of us are clean freaks, overkill, etc. OK by me.

But rest assured, on the off chance you ever happen to get a bottle of my stuff, it may not be the best you ever had, but at least you will know it won't be a safety concern....

 

[shanek17]

Exactly. I think we had this discussion before last year or the year before, the end result is that the dilution does pretty much nix the antiseptic qualities of honey. I did a search on "antiseptic" and this one came up, I think it's the one.

And it doesn't take much to tip the balance either, I once put about a tablespoon of boiled water into one of those honey bears (about half-full, so maybe a cup of honey?) because it had crystallized, and it went moldy a few months later.

Okay so let me get this straight, this person took really hot boiled water, (which destroys integrity of honey) and added it to a "honey bear". Okay honey bear reminds me of those plastic bear shaped honey containers in grocery stores. So thats another big variable that I should clarify. Honey in grocery stores IS NOT the same as honey from a natural honey farm! I see alot of my freinds on facebook posting the same thing about most store bought honey being FAKE. but thats another whole story.. Ill post 2 links here that i found on google, if your interested in this.



Shock finding: More than 75 percent of all 'honey' sold in grocery stores contains no honey at all

http://www.naturalnews.com/034102_honey_consumer_alert.html

Is your Honey Fake?
http://blog.fooducate.com/2011/11/21/is-your-honey-fake/

Okay so this person found mold on their honey, but it might not even officially be honey! and even if it does contain real honey, they pasteurize it and do other things to the honey to deem it worthy to sit on a shelf and remain a liquid. Iv heard from people that high heat destroys the integrity of the honey! I also heard a guy talking about his natural organic honey , and he casually brought this up, " oh if you get a little mold on the top of the honey..just scrape it off and throw it out. (he just threw out the little bit of mold not the entire jar of honey)

So, just to clarify, When im talking about the natural integrity of honey, im talking about REAL NATURAL HONEY!

 

[Penguinetti]

While I did not know that honey naturally has hydrogen peroxide, it is fairly common knowledge that honey has a number of antiseptic qualities. Thus eliminating the need to sterilize honey before usage.

One major antiseptic component is the high concentration of sugars. This is basically identical to the mechanism behind salted meats in the days of yore. A microorganism lands in the honey. The honey has a higher concentration of sugar than the liquid contained in the cell walls. Water migrates out of the cell wall and into the honey, causing either dormancy or death of the cell. Pretty neat I think!

Now, let's say you take your honey and mix it with treated water. I would readily argue that for all intents and purposes the must initially has a very low microorganism count, at least if you mix and store using sanitized components. I would also argue, however, that you have just made bug food, as you have diluted the sugars and other natural antiseptics to a level where microorganisms can now thrive. Microorganisms landing in your bug food are going to start chowing down and multiplying. And these microorganisms don't necessarily have to be yeast.

The point I'm trying to make is, there are no special antiseptic qualities to mead that aren't similar to other fermented beverages.

Exactly. I think we had this discussion before last year or the year before, the end result is that the dilution does pretty much nix the antiseptic qualities of honey. I did a search on "antiseptic" and this one came up, I think it's the one.

And it doesn't take much to tip the balance either, I once put about a tablespoon of boiled water into one of those honey bears (about half-full, so maybe a cup of honey?) because it had crystallized, and it went moldy a few months later.

This right here is really the key point. The second you add more water to honey, the potential for the growth of micro-organisms grow. It is, in it's most basic terms, exactly what we are doing with mead. Diluting the honey with enough water so the yeast (a type of fungus) can grow. This can happen in wild hives after a good rain too. There are some historians who believe that wild fermented honey was one of the first introductions of alcohol to humanity.

So yes...honey is very sanitary all alone. However, we are not leaving it alone. It is no longer JUST honey.

You know, this is just an observation, and I am really new to this Mead Making.
I was planning to give some of my "project" to friends and family. Just as a nice thing to do, homemade Mead, bring it to a BBQ or friends house, etc.
I would feel really really bad if I just happen to give a gift to someone and it ended up being bad or even worse it made someone ill. (Just shoot me)
Especially if I could have avoided it, if I was ensuring good sanitation practices while I worked.

Why take a chance? It isn't hard.
If you would like to think some of us are clean freaks, overkill, etc. OK by me.

But rest assured, on the off chance you ever happen to get a bottle of my stuff, it may not be the best you ever had, but at least you will know it won't be a safety concern....

Out of all these posts, you manage to single out the only one that deals with a specific example. Are you using this specific example, then, to refute all of the other posts? The other posts deal with "REAL NATURAL HONEY" in terms of hypotheticals.

I also heard a guy talking about his natural organic honey , and he casually brought this up, " oh if you get a little mold on the top of the honey..just scrape it off and throw it out. (he just threw out the little bit of mold not the entire jar of honey)

So, just to clarify, When im talking about the natural integrity of honey, im talking about REAL NATURAL HONEY!

So just to clarify what you said, that some guy who was speaking about his "natural organic honey" said that it is possible for mold to grow on honey? Doesn't that go against you saying honey won't grow mold?


Like I said before, take whatever theory you have come up with, and try to refute it yourself. You might actually come up with the same arguments these other people are bringing up.

EDIT: oh, and "this person" (who you can easily address as Chevette Girl, or Chevette, or speak to her directly even) said about 1T of water into roughly 1 cup of honey. That's a ratio of 1:16. Not very much, IMHO.

 

[shanek17]

Wait…what? I’m sorry, you posted a link about tribal African’s brewing a type of beer by leaving outside in a tree and making comments about “see? We don’t have to be sanitary after all!” and from that we’re supposed to infer that you only meant not to be OCD about sanitation?

What do you mean when you say, “see? We don’t have to be sanitary after all!” when did I say or imply that?

Just because Im sharing a video that shows a different perspective on sanitization doesnt mean I dont think "we dont have to be sanitary after all".

And just because Im sharing info about natures natural protection doesnt mean I am against homebrewers sanitizing.

 

[shanek17]

Out of all these posts, you manage to single out the only one that deals with a specific example. Are you using this specific example, then, to refute all of the other posts? The other posts deal with "REAL NATURAL HONEY" in terms of hypotheticals.




So just to clarify what you said, that some guy who was speaking about his "natural organic honey" said that it is possible for mold to grow on honey? Doesn't that go against you saying honey won't grow mold?


Like I said before, take whatever theory you have come up with, and try to refute it yourself. You might actually come up with the same arguments these other people are bringing up.

EDIT: oh, and "this person" (who you can easily address as Chevette Girl, or Chevette, or speak to her directly even) said about 1T of water into roughly 1 cup of honey. That's a ratio of 1:16. Not very much, IMHO.

Dilution of mead with water is a important factor to consider, and im glad it was brought up, it doesnt mean I dont agree with you guys on that.

and Apparently mold can grow on pure honey, thats what this guy said. Now is that a big deal? according to this guy, no , just scrape it off and continue using it. From what Iv heard from various sources, mold isnt as big of a deal as some make it out to be. Iv even had a freind tell me its okay to eat moldy cheese lol. but its not something I will experiment with because I dont know alot about mold.

 

[Midnight Sun]

Huh, never heard about mold growing on top of honey. Perhaps it happens in a pocket of lower gravity that tend to occur as honey crystallizes.

If I had a batch of honey with mold, I would scrape it off as you suggested and give it a try. I wouldn't use it for an important mead (wedding gift or such) or one with expensive ingredients, though. I'd consider it an experimental batch with a bonus at the end if it turned out ok. Mold spores are remarkably tough, so if you had mold in your honey then you can guarantee that you have mold spores that didn't get scraped up. I figure that my pitched yeast would overwhelm the nasties. Of course, I would choose a yeast with a high competitive factor like K1V-1116

 

[shanek17]

Huh, never heard about mold growing on top of honey. Perhaps it happens in a pocket of lower gravity that tend to occur as honey crystallizes.

If I had a batch of honey with mold, I would scrape it off as you suggested and give it a try. I wouldn't use it for an important mead (wedding gift or such) or one with expensive ingredients, though. I'd consider it an experimental batch with a bonus at the end if it turned out ok. Mold spores are remarkably tough, so if you had mold in your honey then you can guarantee that you have mold spores that didn't get scraped up. I figure that my pitched yeast would overwhelm the nasties. Of course, I would choose a yeast with a high competitive factor like K1V-1116

Yea Iv never heard or seen of mold on good honey either, but this dude said that happened to his. Thats a good point! get a competitive yeast to use for extra security. I believe the 1116 and 1118 are the highest yeast lavalin offer, they can handle up to 18% in lab conditions.

 

[shanek17]

Just to clarify, this threads name is a little misleading. I intended for it to be a humorous, thats why I said " for all you sanitization freaks " But when i posted the topic it came out as "for all you sanitization freaks :d" I dont know why the thread title didnt show the smiley face. Also the africans brewing beer isnt my video, I watched it on youtube, thought it was great and shared the video and the title for others to see.

When I began home brewing I realized sanitization is the biggest thing in this hobby so it made sense to me to see both sides of the story. So I began researching about sanitary brewing on the internet and the majority if not all of websites are about buying and using such and such chemical and the importance of using them to sanitize. This can be overwhelming for new homebrewers, it seems at every turn they are told SANTIZE SANITIZE AND SANITIZE! and this can leave them feeling like there taking care of a little sick baby. But very few people talk about whats already available to protect. instead we hear the usual endorsed chemical sanitization lecture.

I personally feel I have learnt alot about the sanitizing products that I can buy, so now I am interested in learning more about natures strength. We make nature intended beverages so why not learn more about alcohol and nature and how it works and what it offers. That way I can make informed decisions about my practice and sanitization methods. Afterall, arent we all working towards the same goal?

So, What I am trying to get across here is to embrance natures protection and our own methods of protection, and find a balance in homebrewing.

 

[Soyala_Amaya]

What do you mean when you say, “see? We don’t have to be sanitary after all!” when did I say or imply that?

You implied that by the very link you posted. That link had no information other than "they filter it through banana leaves". I had to do my own outside reasearch to even figure out what banana beer is. In the link you see people digging into a tree outside, on the ground, ming whatever it is in a bowl, then later drinking something that we are supposed to infer is whatever was in the tree.

You then say

i find it cool how relaxed they are with their procedures QUOTE]

Thus implying that this is something that you want to emulate and think other people should too. Multiple people have given multiple reasons why no one on this board wants to emulate the practices of poverty stricken African tribes or ignorant medeival lords. (Such as alcohol the reason our ancestors drank alcohol WAS because it was safer to drink, but because they boiled it to get more sugars from the grain, not because of the alcohol.)

Have you possibly thought that, with almost every single elder on the board arguing with your premise and 'misunderstanding' what you were really trying to say, it is not so much that other people are having issues understanding your point but that you are failing to communicate?

 

[Chevette Girl]

Okay so let me get this straight, this person took really hot boiled water, (which destroys integrity of honey) and added it to a "honey bear". Okay honey bear reminds me of those plastic bear shaped honey containers in grocery stores. So thats another big variable that I should clarify. Honey in grocery stores IS NOT the same as honey from a natural honey farm! I see alot of my freinds on facebook posting the same thing about most store bought honey being FAKE. but thats another whole story.. Ill post 2 links here that i found on google, if your interested in this.

Ooookay, you can put on the brakes there... there's a whole other thread in the Hive about "fake honey" that's pretty recent, go look it up and read it before you sound the alarm bells again. It's just been ultrafiltered so you can't tell where it came from by identifying the pollen species, it doesn't necessarily mean that it's all "fake" honey.

And my case of moldy honey? It was a honey bear squeezie-bottle from the same apiary I get all my honey from because I find a squeezie-bottle a lot easier to measure out for cooking and toast than dipping a spoon or knife into a honey jar. My usual honey source, Crerar's, filter without heating the honey, so the stuff crystalizes within a few months. I had already tried gently heating it multiple times but it just crystallized within a couple of days and of course wouldn't come out of the dang bottle, defeating the whole purpose of having it in said bottle. So I boiled some water in my kettle to decrease the chances of anything icky hitching a ride, allowed it to cool in the kettle, and poured a little bit into the jar with the honey in the hopes that tipping the water balance a little might make it slightly less oversaturated and less likely to recrystallize within a day or two. Lesson learned, the next time I wanted honey, the squeezy-bottle had green fuzz growing in it.

It was my way of saying that "nature's strength" as you call it Shanek17, can be pretty delicate and easy to upset.

And it's really cool that even without good sanitation, things often turn out OK, but that's like saying, hey, I didn't boil the pond water I just drank, and it didn't cause me any problems! Doesn't mean it's a good idea to keep doing it now that we know better.

You ask,

What do you mean when you say, “see? We don’t have to be sanitary after all!” when did I say or imply that?

Just because Im sharing a video that shows a different perspective on sanitization doesnt mean I dont think "we dont have to be sanitary after all".

And just because Im sharing info about natures natural protection doesnt mean I am against homebrewers sanitizing.

Well, to put our confusion in perspective, this is what you said earlier on in this thread:

Theres no need to sanitize every little thing for brewing. Lets give the yeasties and alcohol some credit and let them show their strengths!

Are you starting to see how we misconstrued your point?

 

[Msarro]

From this quote, I got this:

That brew is a warzone between yeasts and outsiders. Warzones are always littered with casualties. Casualties will eff up your brew.


So make brew, not war.

LOL! That's actually not too far off. You've got two factions fighting for resources, and neither side will stop until the other is completely obliterated and they get all the resources to themselves. Also, occasionally the two sides are willing to eat eachother.

 

[Chevette Girl]

LOL! That's actually not too far off. You've got two factions fighting for resources, and neither side will stop until the other is completely obliterated and they get all the resources to themselves. Also, occasionally the two sides are willing to eat eachother.

Why is this now sounding like a strategic board game...?

 

[hepcat]

Yeast package says to sanitize the package before opening using. I'm sure there is a reason for it. Just saying.

Curious to know what yeast you're talking about....I've used a variety of Lalvin brand and one of Safale(US-05) dry yeast and none of the packages I've used says to do that.

edit: just noticed your response on that other thread, that you were talking about Wyeast smack packs.