First-timer - two questions about yeast

[Chevette Girl]

As long as they're still going, there's hope. And a slow ferment isn't ncecessarily a bad thing, unless you're impatient. As long as it's not making stinkies or off tastes, I'd just let it do its thing.

If the SG's stop moving, then I'd consider a repitch with an acclimated starter using EC-1118 or something similar, with a high alcohol tolerance and a kill factor.

 

[Hagroth]

As long as they're still going, there's hope. And a slow ferment isn't ncecessarily a bad thing, unless you're impatient. As long as it's not making stinkies or off tastes, I'd just let it do its thing.

If the SG's stop moving, then I'd consider a repitch with an acclimated starter using EC-1118 or something similar, with a high alcohol tolerance and a kill factor.

I just checked the gravities again today and I didn't get very uplifting results... Well, the "dry" batch is still making progress, but it seems to me the "sweet" one has given up entirely.
For both, the foam was very minimal when pouring into my measuring glass, as opposed to what it used to be like. They don't stink, they both smell and taste great. I'll try repitching the sweet one, once I've checked the pH-values.

2012-08-29

"Sweet" batch
OG = 115 = 1.115; SG = 88 = 1.088
((1.05 * (1.115 - 1.088 )) / 1.088 ) / 0.79 = 3,3%

"Dry" batch
OG = 102 = 1.102; SG = 38 = 1.038
((1.05 * (1.102 - 1.038 )) / 1.038 ) / 0.79 = 8,2%

The dry mead airlock did release gas every 70 seconds or so.
The sweet batch was entirely silent the 5-10 minutes I spent down there in the basement. Moreover, it didn't release any gas even when I pressed down on the lid and thus forced whatever gas that ought to have been in there out. So it seems to me that one is entirely dead.

I'll get some pH-measurements done as well soon.

 

[Chevette Girl]

Until you get identical readings a week or two apart, it's still going... Have you been stirring or aerating these at all? Stirring, or at least swirling the carboy around every day to keep the yeast in suspension could help. And I'd probably give each of them a really good aeration if you can.

 

[Hagroth]

Until you get identical readings a week or two apart, it's still going... Have you been stirring or aerating these at all? Stirring, or at least swirling the carboy around every day to keep the yeast in suspension could help. And I'd probably give each of them a really good aeration if you can.

My readings are pretty much +-3, so for the sweet batch (the dead one), that's pretty much the same value for 19 days! I haven't touched them at all, so I guess I'll give them a little aerating right now, maybe that'd be a good idea. At least the sweet batch since I've got nothing to lose. I'm going to buy that EC-1118 tomorrow as well and repitch if it doesn't give any signs of starting going at all after aerating it.

 

[kudapucat]

Your dry batch has just entered what I call the 'drinkable SG range' so it's sweet.
The sweet batch would be unbearable and cloyingly sweet.
Hang in there, wait until the yeast really give up the ghost, then repurchase EC-1118 as CG suggests if you're still not happy.
It's what EC-1118 is famous for- restarting ferments.
But it has a high tolerance so could take both batches dry, so last resort eh?
It also ferments hard and strong, which can 'commercialise' your brew, blowing off delicate aromatics that make it unique.
The most important trait of a meadher is patience, the second most is more patience, the third luck, and after that comes procedure, sanitisation, experience etc...

 

[Hagroth]

Your dry batch has just entered what I call the 'drinkable SG range' so it's sweet.
The sweet batch would be unbearable and cloyingly sweet.
Hang in there, wait until the yeast really give up the ghost, then repurchase EC-1118 as CG suggests if you're still not happy.
It's what EC-1118 is famous for- restarting ferments.
But it has a high tolerance so could take both batches dry, so last resort eh?
It also ferments hard and strong, which can 'commercialise' your brew, blowing off delicate aromatics that make it unique.
The most important trait of a meadher is patience, the second most is more patience, the third luck, and after that comes procedure, sanitisation, experience etc...

That's seems about right.
The sweet batch is dead, and seems to have been for 19 days at least. But I'll see if it gets going again within a couple of days now that I've aerated it for a few minutes.
It having a high tolerance shouldn't be a problem as long as I monitor it and kill it off when it reaches the alcohol level I'm trying to achieve right?
Ok, I'm not much of a wine taster, I'm just excited to make my first brew haha. But I'll take that into consideration, definitely!
Also, I take it EC-1118 would be like the standard yeast for restarting ferments in this forum am I right? Or maybe in home brewing over all? Does anyone use it as the original yeast?

---------------------------
Apparently you can't edit previous posts once you've made a new one, so I need to do it here:
In my previous post, the SG for the "dry" batch is too low. It's not 38, it's 48:

"Dry" batch
OG = 102 = 1.102; SG = 38 = 1.046
((1.05 * (1.102 - 1.048 )) / 1.048 ) / 0.79 = 6,8%

 

[Chevette Girl]

The sweet batch is dead, and seems to have been for 19 days at least. But I'll see if it gets going again within a couple of days now that I've aerated it for a few minutes.

I had one batch that stuck for a year at 1.030 restart all by itself when I aerated the bejeebus out of it and fed it some bread yeast to try to de-stink it when I discovered a problem, so anything's possible.

And if the EC-1118 takes it dry, you can always just add more honey till it can't eat any more...

 

[Hagroth]

I had one batch that stuck for a year at 1.030 restart all by itself when I aerated the bejeebus out of it and fed it some bread yeast to try to de-stink it when I discovered a problem, so anything's possible.

And if the EC-1118 takes it dry, you can always just add more honey till it can't eat any more...

Oh, maybe mine could be revived as well then

Well, the EC-1118 still can't tolerate more than maybe 18%-20% which I believe is the upper limit for fermented brews am I right? And add more honey? Can't you just kill it off by putting it in the cold or something?

 

[kudapucat]

EC-1118 has an official tolerance of 18% but can go further it treated nicely.

You can put yeast to sleep by chilling it. We call it cold-crashing.
But they won't die, and will wake up when it warms up.
You can easily kill yeast by heating (losing alcohol and flavour) or by alcohol poisoning.
You can kill sleeping yeast with chemicals, but don't try this on an active ferment - you must cold crash first.
Adding more honey will feed the yeast until the alcohol kills them, or the honey runs out.

 

[Chevette Girl]

Cold will only stun yeast, it won't kill it. But if you get the mead to near 18% and it stops, that's usually a pretty good indication that you've maxxed out the yeast. I generally wait a year before bottling just to make sure, but if you're less patient and want it sweetened, you'd have to stabilize it with chemicals to prevent the yeast from becoming active again.

 

[Hagroth]

I think I know what the problem is now. First of all, the basement is 16 degrees Celsius which is too cold (the yeast package reads 18-24 degrees), so I took them upstairs where it's 21 degrees. They are now working but slowly, even after four days.

I went and bought some pH-strips to check the pH and apparently the pH in both batches is actually about 3.1, which is too acidic. Stormthecastle.com (http://www.stormthecastle.com/mead/checking-ph-of-your-mead.htm) recommends adding some calcium carbonate in there. What do you guys think? Is it just adding some calcium carbonate until it's at about 3.7-4.0 and then closing the lid, or is there anything else I should do as well?

 

[Chevette Girl]

Might be a good idea, but go easy on it.

Potassium carbonate is a better idea as it dissolves more quickly, don't be impatient if all you can find is the calcium carbonate, I would give it a day or two between adjustments to make sure you're not going to overshoot your pH correction.

I found 1 teaspoon in a 3 or 4 gallon batch of red currant wine brought it up from 2.8 to 3.2, so if I were you I'd start with 1/4 tsp per gallon, stir well, then check again in a day or two. It'll fizz because of the chemical reaction.

 

[Hagroth]

Might be a good idea, but go easy on it.

Potassium carbonate is a better idea as it dissolves more quickly, don't be impatient if all you can find is the calcium carbonate, I would give it a day or two between adjustments to make sure you're not going to overshoot your pH correction.

I found 1 teaspoon in a 3 or 4 gallon batch of red currant wine brought it up from 2.8 to 3.2, so if I were you I'd start with 1/4 tsp per gallon, stir well, then check again in a day or two. It'll fizz because of the chemical reaction.

http://forum.northernbrewer.com/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=51511
Hehe yup, I think I'll be going for potassium carbonate instead

Ok, thanks for the heads up!

 

[kudapucat]

Cold will only stun yeast, it won't kill it.

Yep.
See? Told ya. Glad to hear they're waking up in the warmer atmosphere.
Your false start may have done something that means it will continue at this slow rate.
Give it a chance, wait it out, it should be an ok brew.
DWHAHB. ;-)

 

[Hagroth]

I've found one place selling potassium carbonate. It's a shop for home brewing, tobacco DYI etc. They sell potassium carbonate for making home-made snuff (tobacco), according to them it should be pure potassium carbonate. What do you think? It should be what I'm looking for, right?

http://www.pgw.se/product_info.php?products_id=756

 

[Hagroth]

Ok, I just measured the SG again, 2012-09-06:

Sweet batch:
OG = 115 = 1.115; SG = 82 = 1.082
((1.05 x (OG – TG)) / TG) / 0.79 = ((1.05 * (1.115 - 1.082)) / 1.082 ) / 0.79 = 4%

Dry batch:
OG = 102 = 1.102; SG = 40 = 1.040
((1.05 * (1.102 - 1.04)) / 1.04 ) / 0.79 = 7.9%

In the last 8 days, the dry batch has increased its ABV by 1 percent while the sweet batch has gone up by 0.7%. Obviously, simply moving them up here has increased their speed. They're both at it at about the same speed as the first days of fermenting. The dry mead should in other words be done in about three weeks, while the sweet one will take a lot longer - 7 weeks. I've added some potassium carbonate, about one tsp (in about 2.6 gallons) since I need to increase more than 0.4, into the sweet mead, mostly because it's the slowest one. I stirred it pretty vigorously for five minutes and then shut the lid. I'll check the pH-value again in 24 hours.

 

[Chevette Girl]

Sounds like you're on the right track, as long as things are still moving and you're patient, you should get some good meads out of this!

 

[Hagroth]

I'll check the gravity again tomorrow. However, one bucket is leaking slightly (leaves a small puddle on the floor after 24 hours) so I'm thinking about buying a new one and everything that's needed, sanitizing and simply pouring (racking basically, I guess you'd call it) the entire batch into the new bucket. It's the spigot that isn't attached properly. This shouldn't be a problem right?

 

[wayneb]

Well, racking isn't so much pouring as it is siphoning the liquid from one container to another. This is done both to minimize the amount of mixing with the air (to keep the possibility of oxidation to a minimum) and to remove the generally more clear liquid from the yeast residue (lees) on the bottom of a container.

Since your batches are still fermenting, if you do rack rather than pour, you should be sure to suck up at least the top layer of the lees, since there will be a significant number of actively fermenting yeast cells there. If you rack only clear liquid you run the risk of stopping the fermentation, because there may not be enough active cells in the liquid to keep the fermentation going.

 

[Hagroth]

Well, racking isn't so much pouring as it is siphoning the liquid from one container to another. This is done both to minimize the amount of mixing with the air (to keep the possibility of oxidation to a minimum) and to remove the generally more clear liquid from the yeast residue (lees) on the bottom of a container.

Since your batches are still fermenting, if you do rack rather than pour, you should be sure to suck up at least the top layer of the lees, since there will be a significant number of actively fermenting yeast cells there. If you rack only clear liquid you run the risk of stopping the fermentation, because there may not be enough active cells in the liquid to keep the fermentation going.

Thanks! I see, I'll make sure to get everything back in there pretty much.

Another, completely separate question: I screwed up the drilling into the new bucket, so the spigot wasn't completely sealed (thankfully, I tested it with water first). I'm wondering if I can use silicone to seal it up from the inside so I can use the bucket anyway. Will the silicone disturb or dissolve/release particles into my brew? Are the ones that say that they can be used in aquariums "brew-proof" as well?