Read this about aeration. Better mead making techniques!!!
- Thread starter Squatchy
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SO here is my thoughts. And it's not very scientific this time.
If Chris White said "this is how you do it". I'm all in. WHy would a guy who owns A yeast company, and spends his entire life wanting to help people make the best beer they can. ANd gets payed to do private consultations. And has the reputation of his company and his own welfare to us in his book to do something that goes against everything he stands for. Surely he know all of the things we toss around and wonder about.
I put this whole thing to bed a very long time ago. He said it. I do it like he said. I like what it brings to the table. I'm sold.
If Chris White said "this is how you do it". I'm all in. WHy would a guy who owns A yeast company, and spends his entire life wanting to help people make the best beer they can. ANd gets payed to do private consultations. And has the reputation of his company and his own welfare to us in his book to do something that goes against everything he stands for. Surely he know all of the things we toss around and wonder about.
I put this whole thing to bed a very long time ago. He said it. I do it like he said. I like what it brings to the table. I'm sold.
I'm just saying for the pre-pitch, once you add the yeast they soak up all the O2 so you should go from zero.
Thanks man. I got this little device hooked up to my 0.5 micron stone. Works pretty well!
https://www.midwestsupplies.com/oxygenation-upgrade-kit
I seriously need a bigger O2 tank. I've been burning through the stupid little disposable ones way fast. It'd be worth it in the long run to get a reusable, bigger tank.
Yea. That's the expensive way to go. Get a bigger welding tank and it will last you years on a single tank.
WHat has been your experiences once you staerted doing the O2 thing? Are you only doing it a pitch or are you also giving it a second dose a little later? What changes do you think you are experiencing?
I'm oxygenating at pitch and 24hrs later. It seems like I'm getting shorter lag times, but I haven't done side by side tests or anything. What I mostly like is the convenience of not having to run the aquarium pump for 30-45 min a day until the 1/3 break.
This is something I am using and LOVE it. Seems to be way better than the standard lees stirrer for both aerating and degassing. Can use in both buckets and carboys.
Clean Bottle Express Wine/Beer DeGasser. Search on Amazon.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Clean Bottle Express Wine/Beer DeGasser. Search on Amazon.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Yes, I've started using pure O2 at pitch and 24 hrs and man are my yeasties going nuts for it! Love it! And love my whip stirrer (clean bottle degasser) for degassing and aerating after the 24 hr mark twice daily until 1/3 sugar break.
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I wonder if we're the only guys calling oxygen O2 rather than just O or whether other forums do the same..
Wow X-Tian that's 2 posts about that product in the same day in the same thread. Not to mention in the other thread as well. I'm not too sure you're not a partner with that company
Wow X-Tian that's 2 posts about that product in the same day in the same thread. Not to mention in the other thread as well. I'm not too sure you're not a partner with that company
I wonder if we're the only guys calling oxygen O2 rather than just O or whether other forums do the same..
Wow X-Tian that's 2 posts about that product in the same day in the same thread. Not to mention in the other thread as well. I'm not too sure you're not a partner with that company
Haha! I know, right?! I originally had an amazon link but decided to edit it out so peeps don't think I'm affiliated! Naw, I just really dig this thing and want to share things I find helpful. I have a lees stirrer I started out with, which is good, but I find the whip to mix so much more thoroughly. It's a little more flexible than the lees stirrer, though, so unsure if will hold up for as long over time than the lees stirrer. Creates a great vortex that Squatchy talks about the importance in getting the O2 from the air sucked down into the must, although he uses a lees stirrer which will also get the job done nicely. Is great at mixing fermaid O directly pitching into the must without clumps. Lastly, it's not too expensive!
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Don't forget to get a regulator with a barb to attach to tubing. I got the Eagle Brewing FE378 Oxygen Regulator off Amazon. Fits Home Depot canisters and works great!
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Aeration, Oxygenation and its Toxicity to Yeast
Aeration, Oxygenation and its Toxicity to Yeast
NOTE: I realize that this is an ‘old’ thread but it is easily findable using the the GotMead search engine (while many other articles are not) and contains a wealth of good information; it makes more sense, to me, to add to this thread, consolidating more information in an easily-findable thread than to create yet another posting covering the same identical topic. I was glad to find this thread and the useful information and suggestions it presents. I was looking for information on oxygen’s toxicity to yeast; this thread provided a lot of good info. Thanks to all, and especially Squatchy and Stasis!
I have now spent several afternoons searching for specific, practical information on the potential toxicity of oxygen to yeast during fermentation. I have found a number of papers and articles discussing potential toxicity of oxygen to cells in the body and yeast cells in general but these are often medical or physiological in nature, exceedingly abstruse and have little or no discernible applicability to the kinds of fermentations we perform. With regard to oxygen toxicity in brewing fermentations, I have found nothing concrete or based upon evidence of any kind, except the sources cited below. I DID find some useful information, though, and thought it best present it here.
The study referred to by Stasis (http://media.libsyn.com/media/basicbrewing/AerationMethods.pdf) is, of course, limited in the sense that nowhere is pure oxygen used; all tests and measurements reflect a normal atmospheric mix. Although the author alludes to oxygen’s potential toxicity to yeast, the remarks are speculative and are given without substantiation, quantification or reference to any evidential source.
Wyeast’s page on oxygenation (https://www.wyeastlab.com/oxygenation/) states that: “Over-oxygenation is generally not a concern as the yeast will use all available oxygen within 3 to 9 hours of pitching and oxygen will come out of solution during that time as well. Under-oxygenation is a much bigger concern.”
It should be noted that the context of the above quotation is that of dissolved oxygen at pitch and, although all the sources I have been able to find state that the yeast will use ‘all available’ oxygen during the lag phase, toxicity could, conceivably, be an issue during later phases of fermentation, though I have, to date, found nothing other than speculative remarks to support this view.
Parenthetically, Wyeast’s FAQ page concurs with Chris White’s book; you can't get more that 8% with air and an aquarium pump.
In this article (https://www.morebeer.com/articles/oxygen_in_beer), the author performed a series of experiments, using various methods to aerate/oxygenate wort and measured the resultant dissolved oxygen content with a dissolved oxygen meter. The author took the dissolved oxygen level to over 19ppm in some of the experimental worts. Results were largely consistent with those cited by Wyeast and Chris White’s book; O2 with an aeration stone is the only practical way to provide more than 8ppm. The article also makes the following observations:
1) “Using pure oxygen, I obtained readings well over 19.0 ppm. The most noticeable difference in fermentation was that worts with levels greater than 10 ppm of dissolved oxygen would start fermenting later than worts with levels around 7 ppm. This can be easily explained: The wort with higher levels of dissolved oxygen has a longer aerobic stage while it absorbs the greater quantity of oxygen. Once these more oxygen-rich worts started to ferment, however, they would ferment much more vigorously than the worts with lower oxygen levels.”
2) “Attenuation and ester production in worts of the same gravity but differing levels of dissolved oxygen were equivalent. Comparing beer made from worts with dissolved oxygen levels in the 6.0–8.0 ppm range and those made from worts with levels greater than 12.0 ppm, the flavor characteristics were indistinguishable.”
3) “Higher dissolved oxygen levels will also reduce the flocculation capacity of your yeast; the yeast in these experiments stayed in suspension longer when the worts started with higher dissolved oxygen levels.” AND “The reduced flocculation of yeast at 65 °F (18 °C) did give the beers made from the higher dissolved oxygen levels a yeasty flavor, but cold conditioning and extended aging eventually flocculated the yeast.”
The author also makes the following interesting statement: “Home brewers, in general, underpitch yeast. Most starters from liquid yeasts on their own cannot provide a large healthy crop of yeast for robust fermentation of a 5-gal batch. Higher levels of dissolved oxygen in starters and in wort, however, will help increase the production of yeast and get your fermentation going more quickly.”
This observation, I think, addresses, to some extent, the topic of biomass size and generation discussed in this thread, pointing to the idea that biomass size is variable and can be increased, to some extent, by increase in the level of dissolved oxygen in the must.
pablopokerface brought up the issue of oxygen delivery’s dependence upon pressure; there are some applicable guidelines in the MoreBeer article, as the author gave ppm readings and the related psi levels and dosage durations for some of the results. My own experience has been that, below pressures of 3 or 4 psi, little O2, if any, will be delivered; pressures of 6psi or above (I use 7.5-10 psi) deliver plenty of oxygen to the must. The article cites source references and displays a table showing the relationship between the delivery pressure, the oxygenation time and the measured dissolved oxygen ppm. This data is not definitive but is certainly suggestive.
Almost all of the above observations coincide with my own experience. I have been using oxygen and a .5 micron stone for over 5 years and my fermentations have been vastly improved by it. I use a 5lb tank with a 2-stage regulator. For those wondering about the economy of disposable versus non-disposable O2 rigs, I have made several dozen meads, over the 5 years I have had the tank, and I just had it refilled for the first time last month. The tank and regulator cost about $125.00; refills are $12.00. So it is a significant initial investment but after that, the cost is quite low ($12 per 5 years, in my case).
I oxygenate my musts at 7.5-10 psi for 6 minutes or so before pitch and then I re-dose twice per day until the must hits the 1/2 sugar break. I use the oxygen as a degasser, as well, as I find that dosing with O2 drives the CO2 out of suspension, replacing it with oxygen. During the degassing/feeding process I use O2 at 7.5-10 psi for 5 minutes. Once I’ve degassed in this way, I administer nutrients. I stop nutrients at the 1/3 break and stop oxygenating at the 1/2 break.
The meads I have made using oxygen in this way have had clean, very fast and vigorous primary fermentations. Primary fermentations that once took 2 to 3 weeks now take 24 to 96 hours to reach 1.000 or ABV and they age to drinkability in 1 to 6 months (though, naturally, they improve with further aging). I have yet to encounter a problem with fermentation using this regime. Zero discernable fusels, sulfer compounds or other issues. Based upon Chris White’s recommendation to re-dose once at 12 hours, I may be overdoing the O2, with both dosage and frequency; if so, it certainly doesn’t appear to have any harmful effect on the must. I have never had a problem with flocculation, such as is suggested by observation #3, possibly due to the higher gravities of mead musts.
I would dearly love to purchase a dissolved oxygen meter and try it on a variety of meads, tracking their SG, progress and effects. The problem is not so much the expense of meter as much as the many musts that would have to be made to accumulate enough data to be indicative (much less conclusive). My thought was that a local home-brew group might share the meter with all participants using it to measure and track the progress of musts to accelerate the data accumulation process but I don’t know how practical an idea that might be.
At any rate, I hope this information is useful to others and that others will contribute what additional knowledge may be found in future to this thread. Great Meads and Best Wishes to All!
≈≈≈≈≈≈≈≈≈≈≈≈≈≈≈≈≈≈≈
Eärendil
Miruvor Maker and Eternal NewBee
Mithlond Meadery, Grey Havens, Eriador
Aeration, Oxygenation and its Toxicity to Yeast
NOTE: I realize that this is an ‘old’ thread but it is easily findable using the the GotMead search engine (while many other articles are not) and contains a wealth of good information; it makes more sense, to me, to add to this thread, consolidating more information in an easily-findable thread than to create yet another posting covering the same identical topic. I was glad to find this thread and the useful information and suggestions it presents. I was looking for information on oxygen’s toxicity to yeast; this thread provided a lot of good info. Thanks to all, and especially Squatchy and Stasis!
I have now spent several afternoons searching for specific, practical information on the potential toxicity of oxygen to yeast during fermentation. I have found a number of papers and articles discussing potential toxicity of oxygen to cells in the body and yeast cells in general but these are often medical or physiological in nature, exceedingly abstruse and have little or no discernible applicability to the kinds of fermentations we perform. With regard to oxygen toxicity in brewing fermentations, I have found nothing concrete or based upon evidence of any kind, except the sources cited below. I DID find some useful information, though, and thought it best present it here.
The study referred to by Stasis (http://media.libsyn.com/media/basicbrewing/AerationMethods.pdf) is, of course, limited in the sense that nowhere is pure oxygen used; all tests and measurements reflect a normal atmospheric mix. Although the author alludes to oxygen’s potential toxicity to yeast, the remarks are speculative and are given without substantiation, quantification or reference to any evidential source.
Wyeast’s page on oxygenation (https://www.wyeastlab.com/oxygenation/) states that: “Over-oxygenation is generally not a concern as the yeast will use all available oxygen within 3 to 9 hours of pitching and oxygen will come out of solution during that time as well. Under-oxygenation is a much bigger concern.”
It should be noted that the context of the above quotation is that of dissolved oxygen at pitch and, although all the sources I have been able to find state that the yeast will use ‘all available’ oxygen during the lag phase, toxicity could, conceivably, be an issue during later phases of fermentation, though I have, to date, found nothing other than speculative remarks to support this view.
Parenthetically, Wyeast’s FAQ page concurs with Chris White’s book; you can't get more that 8% with air and an aquarium pump.
In this article (https://www.morebeer.com/articles/oxygen_in_beer), the author performed a series of experiments, using various methods to aerate/oxygenate wort and measured the resultant dissolved oxygen content with a dissolved oxygen meter. The author took the dissolved oxygen level to over 19ppm in some of the experimental worts. Results were largely consistent with those cited by Wyeast and Chris White’s book; O2 with an aeration stone is the only practical way to provide more than 8ppm. The article also makes the following observations:
1) “Using pure oxygen, I obtained readings well over 19.0 ppm. The most noticeable difference in fermentation was that worts with levels greater than 10 ppm of dissolved oxygen would start fermenting later than worts with levels around 7 ppm. This can be easily explained: The wort with higher levels of dissolved oxygen has a longer aerobic stage while it absorbs the greater quantity of oxygen. Once these more oxygen-rich worts started to ferment, however, they would ferment much more vigorously than the worts with lower oxygen levels.”
2) “Attenuation and ester production in worts of the same gravity but differing levels of dissolved oxygen were equivalent. Comparing beer made from worts with dissolved oxygen levels in the 6.0–8.0 ppm range and those made from worts with levels greater than 12.0 ppm, the flavor characteristics were indistinguishable.”
3) “Higher dissolved oxygen levels will also reduce the flocculation capacity of your yeast; the yeast in these experiments stayed in suspension longer when the worts started with higher dissolved oxygen levels.” AND “The reduced flocculation of yeast at 65 °F (18 °C) did give the beers made from the higher dissolved oxygen levels a yeasty flavor, but cold conditioning and extended aging eventually flocculated the yeast.”
The author also makes the following interesting statement: “Home brewers, in general, underpitch yeast. Most starters from liquid yeasts on their own cannot provide a large healthy crop of yeast for robust fermentation of a 5-gal batch. Higher levels of dissolved oxygen in starters and in wort, however, will help increase the production of yeast and get your fermentation going more quickly.”
This observation, I think, addresses, to some extent, the topic of biomass size and generation discussed in this thread, pointing to the idea that biomass size is variable and can be increased, to some extent, by increase in the level of dissolved oxygen in the must.
pablopokerface brought up the issue of oxygen delivery’s dependence upon pressure; there are some applicable guidelines in the MoreBeer article, as the author gave ppm readings and the related psi levels and dosage durations for some of the results. My own experience has been that, below pressures of 3 or 4 psi, little O2, if any, will be delivered; pressures of 6psi or above (I use 7.5-10 psi) deliver plenty of oxygen to the must. The article cites source references and displays a table showing the relationship between the delivery pressure, the oxygenation time and the measured dissolved oxygen ppm. This data is not definitive but is certainly suggestive.
Almost all of the above observations coincide with my own experience. I have been using oxygen and a .5 micron stone for over 5 years and my fermentations have been vastly improved by it. I use a 5lb tank with a 2-stage regulator. For those wondering about the economy of disposable versus non-disposable O2 rigs, I have made several dozen meads, over the 5 years I have had the tank, and I just had it refilled for the first time last month. The tank and regulator cost about $125.00; refills are $12.00. So it is a significant initial investment but after that, the cost is quite low ($12 per 5 years, in my case).
I oxygenate my musts at 7.5-10 psi for 6 minutes or so before pitch and then I re-dose twice per day until the must hits the 1/2 sugar break. I use the oxygen as a degasser, as well, as I find that dosing with O2 drives the CO2 out of suspension, replacing it with oxygen. During the degassing/feeding process I use O2 at 7.5-10 psi for 5 minutes. Once I’ve degassed in this way, I administer nutrients. I stop nutrients at the 1/3 break and stop oxygenating at the 1/2 break.
The meads I have made using oxygen in this way have had clean, very fast and vigorous primary fermentations. Primary fermentations that once took 2 to 3 weeks now take 24 to 96 hours to reach 1.000 or ABV and they age to drinkability in 1 to 6 months (though, naturally, they improve with further aging). I have yet to encounter a problem with fermentation using this regime. Zero discernable fusels, sulfer compounds or other issues. Based upon Chris White’s recommendation to re-dose once at 12 hours, I may be overdoing the O2, with both dosage and frequency; if so, it certainly doesn’t appear to have any harmful effect on the must. I have never had a problem with flocculation, such as is suggested by observation #3, possibly due to the higher gravities of mead musts.
I would dearly love to purchase a dissolved oxygen meter and try it on a variety of meads, tracking their SG, progress and effects. The problem is not so much the expense of meter as much as the many musts that would have to be made to accumulate enough data to be indicative (much less conclusive). My thought was that a local home-brew group might share the meter with all participants using it to measure and track the progress of musts to accelerate the data accumulation process but I don’t know how practical an idea that might be.
At any rate, I hope this information is useful to others and that others will contribute what additional knowledge may be found in future to this thread. Great Meads and Best Wishes to All!
≈≈≈≈≈≈≈≈≈≈≈≈≈≈≈≈≈≈≈
Eärendil
Miruvor Maker and Eternal NewBee
Mithlond Meadery, Grey Havens, Eriador
Thank you for this post. It's nice to have another science minded person here in the group. I have an analyser that I can measure DO with and will start measuring Do along the way. As you know from reading my post in this thread . I have been dosing O2 at pitch 12 and 24 hrs. In The Chris White book I believe he mentions the first dose is usually gone within the hour. I suspect some of the points written from the beer makes point of view many not be the same experience in the mead world. I don't have time to write any more as I am just about ready to start the live podcast tonight. Nice to meet you
I agree; worts are worts and musts are musts. Nonetheless, they have many principles in common and share many parallels; these should be fully explored until we understand the making of great meads as thoroughly as winemakers understand the making of great wines and beer brewers understand the making of great beers. Or better.
I'll submit anything else I run across that seems pertinent.
Cheers!
≈≈≈≈≈≈≈≈≈≈≈≈≈≈≈≈≈≈
Eärendil
Miruvor Maker and Eternal NewBee
Mithlond Meadery, Grey Havens, Eriador
I'll submit anything else I run across that seems pertinent.
Cheers!
≈≈≈≈≈≈≈≈≈≈≈≈≈≈≈≈≈≈
Eärendil
Miruvor Maker and Eternal NewBee
Mithlond Meadery, Grey Havens, Eriador
