Tosna and clearing of racked mead

[apisgallus]

I'm a 1 year mead maker and made 12 batches of mead. The first 10 I did not use TOSNA and they cleared pretty well in 4-6 weeks and taste pretty good according to other mead makers. The last 2 batches I used TOSNA and after racking they are still cloudy. other than not using raisins there are no major differences. temp is similar and all honey is the same batch of extraction from my hives. Ideas welcome

 

[MightyMosin]

You might want to provide more info on your process and nutrients, etc

 

[Medsen Fey]

And were all the recipes using the same ingredients (other than the nutrients)?

 

[apisgallus]

i used 2.75 lbs honey per gallon rather than 2.5 and 3 in previous batches. used 1/4 cup tea and citrus peel (raisins were added in previous batches as nutrients (don't laugh)? used KV-116 and EC_iii8 and have used these before with great clearing. Temp was in a range of 65-70 F as before. Just wonder if the extra yeast bits in goferm and fermaid O might be an issue. It tasted fine during the racking. Know that clear mead is not essential, but since my first batches as a complete tyro cleared fine, I would like an opinion before I use TOSNA again. Thanks

 

[Medsen Fey]

Clear mead is quite important if you want it to taste its best. The floating matter usually consists of yeast cells (think flavor like brewers yeast) and protein material (also bitter stuff). When that stuff is gone, the flavor gets nicer.

Another question is, "has this finished?" A mead that is still fermenting very slowly (not even enough to bubble) will remain cloudy. Have you checked the gravity to ensure that it is done?

Any changes in a recipe can affect the solution and cause changes in precipitation. Using more honey, adding tea or citrus peel, and yes, using Fermaid products which consist of hydrolyzed yeast can have impact on the suspension. Even using different water can make a difference. If you duplicate this exact recipe but use the raisins instead of the Fermaid O you can see if it clears faster. In the meantime, with this batch I'd encourage patience. If it has finished (it should be bone dry with a gravity at 1.000 or less) give it time and it will probably clear. If you put it in a fridge, you can speed that up quite a bit. If it hasn't cleared up nicely in a couple of months, you can try a fining agent.

 

[apisgallus]

Clear mead is quite important if you want it to taste its best. The floating matter usually consists of yeast cells (think flavor like brewers yeast) and protein material (also bitter stuff). When that stuff is gone, the flavor gets nicer.

Another question is, "has this finished?" A mead that is still fermenting very slowly (not even enough to bubble) will remain cloudy. Have you checked the gravity to ensure that it is done?

Any changes in a recipe can affect the solution and cause changes in precipitation. Using more honey, adding tea or citrus peel, and yes, using Fermaid products which consist of hydrolyzed yeast can have impact on the suspension. Even using different water can make a difference. If you duplicate this exact recipe but use the raisins instead of the Fermaid O you can see if it clears faster. In the meantime, with this batch I'd encourage patience. If it has finished (it should be bone dry with a gravity at 1.000 or less) give it time and it will probably clear. If you put it in a fridge, you can speed that up quite a bit. If it hasn't cleared up nicely in a couple of months, you can try a fining agent.

yes it was stable at 1.00 for two readings 2 weeks apart. I use the same spring water for all brews. Do you have a recommendation for fining agaent? I'm a little surprised that slow clearing has not cropped up more often if your comment about cells and protein (lipids, polysaccharides) is correct. It make sense to me

 

[4give]

I'm a fellow beek too (side business), and use the honey I get from my colonies to make mead. I use any proceeds from honey sales mainly on mead and other hobby costs.

Medsen is correct.

I've always used nutrients, and made two trads the same way. One took forever to clear, and the other cleared fairly easily. Every batch is it's own different biomass.

IMO, TOSNA is a good guide - especially for trads. However, I'm finding it usually ends up calculating more than what's needed. I've been learning to read my meads because following TOSNA usually ends up contributing to a very fast fermentation even if my temps are on the lower end of the range. I think the rehydration with go-ferm really helps, and I've started being more conservative in my feeding regimen. No grumpy yeast - yet.

There's quite a few threads here to search on fining agents for a lot of ideas and opinions. I personally like Super Kleer K.C.

 

[Squatchy]

i used 2.75 lbs honey per gallon rather than 2.5 and 3 in previous batches. used 1/4 cup tea and citrus peel (raisins were added in previous batches as nutrients (don't laugh)? used KV-116 and EC_iii8 and have used these before with great clearing. Temp was in a range of 65-70 F as before. Just wonder if the extra yeast bits in goferm and fermaid O might be an issue. It tasted fine during the racking. Know that clear mead is not essential, but since my first batches as a complete tyro cleared fine, I would like an opinion before I use TOSNA again. Thanks

Hi, I don't feel a need to brag so I won't be specific. Nor will I provide counts. But I have won a good bit of awards competing in mead competitions. And have placed very high in a points race that was decided over how well you did over an entire season of competition in the mead world. I wouldn't consider teaching a new meadmaker a different approach. I think you gain several functions that make your yeast much more viable and therefore. Gives them a better chance to produce a better product because they are better taken care of and have all of the different fractions they need to do their jobs as well as they can do. Clearing a mead is easy. And that is something you will always do in my opinion. Even If a mead clears on its own. I still fine it because it will present even clearer. And you won't get as much, or no dust if you use the right fining agents.

 

[Medsen Fey]

Even If a mead clears on its own. I still fine it because it will present even clearer. And you won't get as much, or no dust if you use the right fining agents.

Very true.
Even a mead that looks crystal clear will tend to develop sediment over time unless it has been protein-stabilized (using a fining agent, or heating, or some technique). Even a mead that has been filtered with fine filtration can drop protein sediment over time.

I'm partial to Bentonite (puttin'mud in your mead), but but other agents can work well. With Bentonite, 0.5 g/L is typical.

 

[Squatchy]

Very true.
Even a mead that looks crystal clear will tend to develop sediment over time unless it has been protein-stabilized (using a fining agent, or heating, or some technique). Even a mead that has been filtered with fine filtration can drop protein sediment over time.

I'm partial to Bentonite (puttin'mud in your mead), but but other agents can work well. With Bentonite, 0.5 g/L is typical.

So true. I have had dust drop out of polished meads that sparkled after running them through my filters. I don't know for sure. But for some reason. I think they might be tannins. Thoughts? I've started using 'Bentonite", which is pH determined based on your mead from More Wine.

 

[Medsen Fey]

It depends on the recipe. If you make an elderberry batch the tannins from that can be polymerizing and dropping out for years to come.
If you make a traditional, without adding tannins, there really aren't many tannins to precipitate, and the sediment will be mostly protein materials and yeast particles. Adding tannins can sometimes help bind and settle out protein and yeast particulates leading to clearer and better-flavored meads.

 

[apisgallus]

I use 1/4 cup of black tea and zest from 1/2 orange for tannins and acidity.
The reports from 10 batches using these have been quite positive, so I'm reluctant to change them experimentally.
I'm looking to try this next experiment using 2.75 lbs honey, tea, orange, KV-116 , 1 gallon mead. will use 2.5 g goferm to start with 2 g of yeast. The two batches will be one with 1 st dose of fermaid O 1.2 g and the other all doses of fermaid O. Since my earlier batches tasted OK (to my families/friends tastes) and cleared, I would like to see what differences a full SNA makes with a partial. used www.meadmaderight.com/tosna-calculator with a starting gravity of 1.11 (based on 2.75 lbs honet. All honey is from my last extraction this past July. Comments welcome

 

[Medsen Fey]

Please post up a brewlog of your test.
It will be interesting to see because 1.2g of Fermaid O is a very small amount of nitrogen in a gallon (about 13 ppm) and while the tea adds some, it probably isn't much. If that ferments smoothly to completion, it will be good to know. If it doesn't it could be due to low nitrogen and also due to pH dropping (which higher amounts of Fermaid O prevent). I'm curious to see the result.

 

[apisgallus]

my first 7 of 10 batches I used tea, raisins and citrus as the oly additions (I did make an elderberry mead, ginger mead and cyser). All of these fermented on average about 2 months to a % ABV of about 14%. Had a fusel smell and taste, which seems to dissipate. No worse that some commercial meads I've tasted. Because of more reading and you tube I decided to try TOSNA. Fermented to 14% SG of 1 within a month. Its the lack of clearing that intrigues me as all other batches cleared quite quickly. I'm sure all my early brews had low nitrogen and there was no buffering additions unless tea and raisins provide that. I have primarily used EC118 but have used KV116 and D47 and 71 B as an experiment. BTW I like your handle of a fusel ier as maybe that's not an inappropriate name for a meadmaker Dioch

 

[Medsen Fey]

Yes, being in the Florida heat, I generate more fusel alcohols by 9 AM than some people do all year!

 

[apisgallus]

Please post up a brewlog of your test.
It will be interesting to see because 1.2g of Fermaid O is a very small amount of nitrogen in a gallon (about 13 ppm) and while the tea adds some, it probably isn't much. If that ferments smoothly to completion, it will be good to know. If it doesn't it could be due to low nitrogen and also due to pH dropping (which higher amounts of Fermaid O prevent). I'm curious to see the result.

 

[apisgallus]

attached mead xlsx never tested pH though
according to advanced nutrient in meadmaking by travis blount, 5 g of goferm should add 150g in approx 3.6 L , 40 ppm ish, and each g of FermO (not K, i cnat type) and as you said each dose of Ferm O add 13 ppm given that I probably need 220 ppm, it seems that TOSNA would only add less than half I needed (I may have got this all wrong, it is a friday after all)

 

[Medsen Fey]

TOSNA does add less yeast assimilabe nitrogen (YAN) than the nitrogen requirements for most yeast, and yet it seems to work as it has been used countless times with success. It may be that organic nitrogen is truly more efficiently used than nitrogen that comes from ammonium ions (in DAP), or perhaps there are other yeast essential nutrients (rather than nitrogen) that support lower nitrogen requirements. I still haven't seen enough data to feel that I understand what is happening, but I won't argue against using TOSNA as the empiric evidence that it works is substantial. With that said, I usually use more that the TOSNA amounts in my batches, and generally find it works well.

Trying to use substantially less than the TOSNA amounts seems like a neat experiment - sort of a how low can you go and still get a good result test? At some level, the lack of nitrogen, lack of other yeast support factors, and lack of buffering are going to leave you with a batch that is being fermented like a show mead with no nutrients - like in the bad old days - with a long, and painful fermentation that is high-risk for getting stuck.

 

[Squatchy]

It depends on the recipe. If you make an elderberry batch the tannins from that can be polymerizing and dropping out for years to come.
If you make a traditional, without adding tannins, there really aren't many tannins to precipitate, and the sediment will be mostly protein materials and yeast particles. Adding tannins can sometimes help bind and settle out protein and yeast particulates leading to clearer and better-flavored meads.

So I very rarely find a mead that I r\feel doesn't deserve some oak additions. And those are always cube and xoakers. You would think in what form you would not expect to g\find particular; areas that drop out later to the degree that you find dust in the bottle a year later after ruining it though .5 nominal filters. I realize it to could also be proteins as well. That's why I have said in post prior. That I now do positive. negative and temp clarification before I filter in hopes of never finding drop-out dust or haze again in my meads that I send out to others. I might not be quite as anal about things I give away to family and friends that already understand the scoop about all the particular pieces involved in clarifications. Never do I hand out stuff that the flavor profile would be compromised by the final investment in clarification..

 

[Squatchy]

Yes, being in the Florida heat, I generate more fusel alcohols by 9 AM than some people do all year!

I'm surprised you haven't [urchased a chest freezer off of Craigslist and a $40 dollar temp controller as long as you have played the game my friend.