A quick nutrient question for a beginner

[absolutepeguche]

Hi folks, a quick nutrient question - there's a lot of options. On reddit they mainly advocate for Femaid O (or 3x boiled bread yeast), Fermaid K and DAP - many recipes use all of these. Fermaid O, on the TOSNA schedule makes sense to my simplistic mind, and it being organically derived (admittedly fallaciously!) appeases my sensibilities. I've seen it described as keeping fermentation steadier, and the metaphor is that it's like feeding someone a balanced diet vs fast food (for DAP).

I think those two points confuse me - why would you use Fermaid K and DAP? Is it a cost thing? Do you generally achieve a tasty brew a bit quicker? What are the nuances I'm missing?

To me it seems like Fermaid Ois more stable/steady, better food, and simpler than using 3 different nutrient additions. But if that was all there was to it, I'm sure people wouldn't still be using the others!

 

[MightyMosin]

Hi folks, a quick nutrient question - there's a lot of options. On reddit they mainly advocate for Femaid O (or 3x boiled bread yeast), Fermaid K and DAP - many recipes use all of these. Fermaid O, on the TOSNA schedule makes sense to my simplistic mind, and it being organically derived (admittedly fallaciously!) appeases my sensibilities. I've seen it described as keeping fermentation steadier, and the metaphor is that it's like feeding someone a balanced diet vs fast food (for DAP).

I think those two points confuse me - why would you use Fermaid K and DAP? Is it a cost thing? Do you generally achieve a tasty brew a bit quicker? What are the nuances I'm missing?

To me it seems like Fermaid Ois more stable/steady, better food, and simpler than using 3 different nutrient additions. But if that was all there was to it, I'm sure people wouldn't still be using the others!

AFAIK Fedmaid-O came along after Fermaid-K, so there are a lot of people use to what they have used for a long time. I do know that if you use DAP before the yeast really develop (budding?) that it is basically poison to them.

I use Fermaid-O as the TOSNA schedule is designed around that and I only need to have that specific nutrient around instead of two others. That makes my life easier and I'm all for that as I hate finding out at the wrong time that I am short of something.

 

[absolutepeguche]

Mm, I noticed that it came after too, and wondered about that.

And yes, I like the simplicity of the Tosna schedule too! I read an anecdotal comment that the TOSNA calculations don't do as well with higher ABV brews - any experience with that?

 

[MightyMosin]

The TOSNA 3.0 does adjust the amount of yeast and nutrients based upon the yeast selected and the OG.

A higher OG will change the yeast pitch and nutrient amounts to account for what will be a higher ABV.

You also have that ability to override the yeast pitch rate to deal with lower yeast cell counts like in SafAle S04 or the US-05 where I will double the TOSNA recommended yeast amount.

I just did a Mesquite mead with pineapple in primary that is at 1.004 and 17% ABV and it tastes really good even though it is young and needs some aging. That was done with TOSNA and 71B yeast.

I'm happy with TOSNA and don't usually go that high on the ABV. I usually calculate the honey to get to about 12%.

 

[absolutepeguche]

Thank you - how would you know when to override the yeast count?

And how is that 1.004 going in terms of sweetness? Had loosely read that at higher ABVs you generally want them to be sweeter to be palatable.

Do you normally chemically stabilise?

 

[4give]

To me, overriding yeast count seems to be more logical in terms of how yeast replicate. Every time a 'mother' yeast spawns anther, the cell wall is scarred. Doing this over an over yields more scarring, and to me, likely less healthy yeast. Over pitching means I have a higher cell count, less scarring from replication, and hopefully happier yeast. That said, I think there may be a downside to over pitching. The fermentation may go too fast with so many yeast happily doing what they do earlier in the fermentation. A fast fermentation isn't always desirable. I've found that slowing it down a bit can help with aroma.
TOSNA is a great guide - especially for Trads - but I think it may be a bit high on the nutrient levels. Does that matter? Only if you find that you have a mead that tastes/smells a bit like nutrients well after fermentation.
Keep in mind that higher ABV can add mouthfeel, but it also comes with a bite. Some folks like that. There are ways to smooth out the alcohol, and you can balance it with some sweetness (back-sweetening). High ABV meads typically age better, and age will smooth out the perception of alcohol as well.

 

[absolutepeguche]

Hmm, I thought that "nutrients" weren't meant to add any flavour? I suppose if you overpitch, you're more like to add enough nutrient to detect in flavour?

Do you generally overpitch? And if so, by how much?

Whats your preferred nutrient calc method?

I wonder if overpitching leads to "hot" flavours from faster fermentation? Totally uninformed guess.

 

[MightyMosin]

Thank you - how would you know when to override the yeast count?

And how is that 1.004 going in terms of sweetness? Had loosely read that at higher ABVs you generally want them to be sweeter to be palatable.

Do you normally chemically stabilise?

Experience with very slow fermentation led to actually reading the spec sheets on yeasts to verify proper fermentation temperatures and to look at how many yeast cells there are in a typical 5g yeast package. The SafAle yeasts that I have used come in an 11g package but have ~the same amount of yeast as a Lalvin 5g package. That is where overriding the TOSNA pitch rate comes in handy or you can potentially just go with the slower fermentation which isn't necessarily a bad thing.

The 1.004 sweetness is there but the perception seems higher than the gravity reading would suggest as the pineapple flavor is there subtle against the Mesquite honey flavor. I'm going to oak it, likely this week. I'll see how that goes prior to deciding if I want some more sweetness to it. I do like the flavor as it is now but oaking should add some complexity.

I usually stabilize if for no other reason than I want to be able to come back to bottles later on and see how they have aged and I don't want a rotten surprise. I do tend to keep in carboys for a while as I really don't like the bottling process. I even purchased kegs, CO2 and a bottling gun to speed up that process and to provide me the option of forced carbonation.

A side benefit of having the CO2 tank is that when I rack, I am always racking into a carboy that has been blanketed with CO2 and I'm minimizing O2 exposure of the mead. I'll even dump CO2 into half drunk wine bottles so that they aren't going bad right away if we don't come back to it the next day.

 

[4give]

Hmm, I thought that "nutrients" weren't meant to add any flavour? I suppose if you overpitch, you're more like to add enough nutrient to detect in flavour?

Do you generally overpitch? And if so, by how much?

Whats your preferred nutrient calc method?

I wonder if overpitching leads to "hot" flavours from faster fermentation? Totally uninformed guess.

Nutrients aren't meant to add flavor, but if you throw too much in and/or too late in the fermentation, I think you'll find you can obtain undesirable attributes.
I usually pitch at least 2g per gallon, if SG is 1.095+. Sometimes a bit more if the packet of yeast I have ends up with only 2g left or something.
I start with TOSNA, and generally end up reducing the nutrients based on the yeast I'm using, the ingredients, and how the batch is fermenting.
I think - don't know for sure - that overpitching too much may lead to faster fermentation. Bench trials are needed IMO. The main downside to a fast ferment that I've found is you can lose aroma.