Bad customer service--www.beer-wine.com

[pain]

OK, you're not quite getting it. Saying 'well, not all yuppies are bad' is the same as saying 'well, not all blacks are criminals'. It is an inherently insulting, demeaning and just plain wrong statement, and not acceptable in this place, which is My Place.

Yes, some people don't discipline their children. I hardly think they're *all* yuppies or whatever. Heck the SCAdians next to me at Pennsic spend the whole war saying 'please stop screaming, honey' to their screaming monster child. I and the other parents in *my* camp kept saying we'd like to go over, pop the child one on the bottom and make the child realize that this behaviour would not be tolerated.

*However*, you don't hear me saying 'those SCAdians don't discipline their children', because that would be an untrue statement. That *person* didn't do her job as a parent. Her group is not in *any way* responsible for her individual action (or lack of action).

If you want to bitch about people who don't discipline their children, *say* "I'm pissed that some people don't discipline their children".

I *am* a yuppie by the original definition of young, upwardly mobile professionals. I *am* liberal in that I think we need to protect our environment and pay attention to the needs of *all* people, not just certain social, religous and ethnic groups. I am also conservative in that I think gun ownership is a basic right, and I will fight to keep that right. I am a liberal in that I believe the choice of whether to have a child or not is *mine*, not the states'. I think our current president is an idiot who is sending our brave soldiers to war for a whim and jamming his religious beliefs down our throats whether we want it or not, and I think our previous president was a fool who couldn't keep his fly zipped.

I think we need stem cell research, and that illegal aliens need to go back home (what part of *illegal* did they not understand?) and come in via our immigration laws. I believe our immigration system needs an overhaul and a lot more funding. I believe welfare is in many cases a waste, and quite a few of those on it should be dropped like hot rocks to sink or swim, as they're just riding the public dole because they're lazy (I know this first hand, a very close friend did *exactly* that for many years before he was caught).

I believe in capital punishment, and the right to defend my own home and family, with lethal force if I believe it necessary. I believe that plea bargaining is bullcrap, and if you do the crime, you should do the time.

You see where I'm going? I'm *many* things. So, no matter what group you bash, you bash *someone*.

No labels. Say it like it is. Bash assholes, or abusive parents, or people who won't discipline their kids. Criticize the actions, not the group they happen to fall into.

Vicky - who *hates* that we all seem to be so blind that we group people by labels. Check it out, we're *people*, ya know? We're all unique.

 

[Angus]

I'm *many* things. So, no matter what group you bash, you bash *someone*.

We're all unique.

Vicky,

I think you summed it up well by describing the very nature of what makes our society so diverse and yet unified (mostly). Each person borrows part of so many different groups; a little more of this, a little less of that. We are therefore very similar to some group that we share the characteristics of, but we are still able to be different. This is what makes us unique. Unfortunately, labels are far too prevalent in our society, which is unfortunate because it leads to misconceptions and, in the worst case, discrimination.

Like you, I tend to be liberal in some ways, conservative in others. I suppose my tendency is to be fiscally conservative, socially liberal. I do believe in smacking a naughty child on the butt when warranted, but abuse and neglect make me furious. My better half is Mexican, and she went through the laborious process of legally entering the country, so those that jump the border should be stopped now. If someone breaks into my house and is going to hurt me or my family, I will do anything to stop it. You can see we have similar opinions.

I also am a firm believer in every person taking responsibility for his or her own actions. And from this, taking the blame if those actions are wrong. You can blame a group of people if that group was unified in an action, but each person should be held accountable for the action. And under no circumstances should the behavior of an individual or group set a precedent in another person's mind such that all others who fall under the same descriptive "label" be expected to act the same way from then on. Doing so is just not fair or right.

Angus

 

[DeltOgre]

Vicky, I honestly do get what you're saying, which is why I apologized in the first place. I agree with just about everything that you said in your last post. Seriously, we're not as different as you might think!!!

I erroneously used the label "Yuppies," which was erroneously followed by the label "Liberals." I agree! I was only trying to explain WHY I "effed" up... It just shows to go ya that being in a hurry never helps any situation...

What you have said is very true, and has made me question my use of labels, and I've seriously been thinking about this pretty much nonstop since I read your first post. We all disagree with someone, on some level, and we all probably have valid reasons for those disagreements. What isn't acceptable is taking the stance of "I'm right and everyone else is wrong," which is basically what labeling does, and is what I did. I do get it. I just didn't express myself very well.

That doesn't say much for my writing abilities... Maybe I should rethink my career path!

Anyways, I hope I didn't permanently piss anyone off, here... I do have some strong feelings on the subject of discipline and its connection to the further degradation of society. I just wasn't all that careful in my choice of words, in that I applied what I see in my immediate area in an inherently misleading way.

What I SHOULD have said, which is what you said, Vicky, is that people who don't discipline their kids piss me off! It's just that simple, and I should have said that in the first place. So, again, I apologize.

And again, in all seriousness, being young, urban, and professional has little to do with being a "yuppie" around these parts. I am young, urban, and professional. I am not a Central Ohio Yuppie. They are a different breed, altogether. But I will seriously reconsider their current label before I go spouting off about it, again...

"No labels. Say it like it is. Bash assholes, or abusive parents, or people who won't discipline their kids. Criticize the actions, not the group they happen to fall into."

Perfectly said and, again, lesson learned...

Peace,
Ogre

 

[WRATHWILDE]

I hope everyone knows that I'm not a people-hater.

I am. Worst of the worst that lot is, run the gamut they do. I could tell you stories...

Cheers,
Wrathwilde
(Luckily for all of you... I have a soft spot for weirdo's, misfits and mazers. If I missed anyone - give me time to reload.)

 

[pain]

Delt, you haven't pissed anyone off permanently, you just pushed one of my Hot Buttons. You're forgiven. And I have strong feelings about discipline too, and feel that lack of it is probably the major factor in the rise in school killings and violent crime. I mean, how can you *not* know your kid is building bombs in the garage for criminey's sake?

And I'm glad you see my point. I can't control what I hear around me out here in the brick-and-mortar world, but this little piece of the virtual world is mine, and since I have godlike powers here, I decided to do my part to try to convince people to drop the damn labeling and grouping of people, and to see each person on their own merits, not by where they live, what they do, their race, creed, sexual preference, schooling, etc.

Each person is his own responsibility. Imagine if each of us stopped blaming *others* for our troubles, and took care of what *we* could handle!

I don't know much about central Ohio, I just pass through on my way to Michigan every year. Do these folks come up to you and say 'Hi, I'm a Central Ohio Yuppie'? Thats what I'm saying. Even while saying you agree that labeling is bad, people still do it........

Angus, we do share some of the same views. Personal responsibility is, to me, the highest of our imperatives, yet hardly anyone does it!!!

Welcome to America, list of groups to blame for your woes on the right, NEXT. A friend of mine used to say whenever someone bitched about posts they saw in our newsgroup: 'Manage your own damn usenet. Twinkies on the right'. I have the t-shirt for that.

Vicky - who feels it may be hopeless to try to make people see each others as individuals, not labels, but I'm stubborn, and can at least deal with it *here*.....

 

[DeltOgre]

"I can't control what I hear around me out here in the brick-and-mortar world, but this little piece of the virtual world is mine, and since I have godlike powers here, I decided to do my part to try to convince people to drop the damn labeling and grouping of people, and to see each person on their own merits, not by where they live, what they do, their race, creed, sexual preference, schooling, etc."

You've done just that, with at least one person... I honestly find myself more and more irritated with "the population in general" with each passing day, and I've let it reflect on my own ability to communicate. You've brought up an important point, and I am SERIOUSLY taking it to heart, both here, and in my everyday life. So, thank you.

'Nuff said, I hope!

And if you ever find yourself stuck in Cow-Lumbers for any reason, drop me a line, and I'll show you what I'm talking about! I need to move back out to the countryside... This city-living is KILLING ME.

Peace and love,
Ogre

 

[Teren The Valkyrie]

I wasnt trying to insult anyone either.. That was not my intent at all.

Teren

 

[DeltOgre]

I don't think anyone ever REALLY means to insult one another... If you do, then you are a serious asshole. I certainly didn't mistake you for that, Teren. Besides, your hubby seems like a good and decent feller, and by association, I figured you were, too. Not a "feller," so much as "good and decent..."

I am seriously upset with myself for labeling and misusing my words! (And I'm not just saying that for Vicky's sake...or to kiss anyone's ass around here.) I guess that in our hurry up and rush world, it just gets "easier" to group and label rather than actually make a point about the action itself... Fortunately, I came back to this thread in time to learn that lesson.

 

[WRATHWILDE]

I mean, how can you *not* know your kid is building bombs in the garage for criminey's sake?

Actually quite easy... as most parents are quite ignorant of the many common household chemicals that can be used to make explosives, so even if the kids truthfully described what they were doing (process they were following), and the chemicals they were using (common household cleaners), without ever mentioning what the desired end result would be (explosives), it's quite conceivable the parents would have no idea and the kids could pass it off as a science experiment. Kids are very good at deceiving their parents, I know I was.

My brother got in trouble for most everything I instigated. It wasn't until well after my 21st birthday that my mother learned the truth. I WAS the perfect child in her eyes, but only because she was never able to catch me in the act, and I was often able to frame my younger brother, who she always considered the trouble maker.

The summer before I started 1st grade I punched a would be 2nd grader in the mouth knocking out his tooth. The kid was an idiot, but always kept trying to hang out with me (my dad built the coolest "tree house" in our back yard) I tried to get him to leave numerous times that day. I even said I was going inside and it was time for him to leave, I went inside for a while and when I came out he appeared again. I told him to leave several more times, he wouldn't go, I finally said if you don't leave I'm going to hit you. He didn't leave, I warned him again I was going to hit him if he didn't leave, he didn't so I punched him in the mouth, knocking out his tooth.

I went inside and told my mom what I'd done. She said I had to go over to his house and apologize, I refused... saying that I'd told him to leave several times, and warned him twice that I would hit him if he didn't. He didn't leave so I hit him. Fully justified in my view... back to my dads "say what you mean... and mean what you say" teachings. Mom was insistent. This kid lived two doors down and their porch was viewable from our. Same side of the street, so although you could see the porch from ours you couldn't see from our door to their door. I walked right over there, under the watchful gaze of my mother... who was observing me from our porch, walked right up to the door and pretended to forcibly knock on the door. I could see my mother clear as day, and she could see me. After a few seconds I pretended to knock again. Pause another few seconds and I stepped back from the door just a little bit as if someone had just answered it. I pretended to apologize (mouth moving, hand gestures for about 30 seconds) waved goodbye and walked back home... Without ever having actually apologized. My mom, for years, told me how proud she was of how I handled myself in that instance. She sincerely believed I had gone over there and apologized, she was convinced she had seen me do it.

Me, I had principles even then. I told him I was going to hit him if he didn't leave (I did), and I told my mom that I refused to apologize (never did). Parents are good at believing what they want to believe, and (some) kids are very good at exploiting it.

Cheers,
Wrathwilde

 

[Angus]

Wait a minute. God like powers?

Powerball is up to $64 million. I pray to the god of GotMead to bless me with the winning numbers.

and (some) kids are very good at exploiting it

.

Exactly. Children are the masters of manipulation from birth. It is up to the parent to control that child and teach them, nurture them to be a responsible and good person.

Angus

 

[Oskaar]

Wrath,

I agree with Angus about the parent being on top of their kids.

What Vicky is saying, pure and simple is that if a parent doesn't have a good grip on what's going on with their kid, they need to get a better grip on what he/she/it/whatever is involved in.

Honestly, you can pick apart a specific example of an argument just like anyone else, but, that doesn't in any way, shape or form change the fact that parents who aren't actively involved in their kids activities are risking their kids and others' well-being. Bad parenting is on the rise, we see it everywhere we go manifested in children with poor manners, attitude and general contempt for authority of any kind. We see parents letting their kids run rampant in malls, restaurants, parties and everywhere else.

To me, the bottom line is if your Mother wanted to ensure that you made an apology, she would have marched you over there like my parents did whenever I got caught knee deep in some kind of hijinks (which wasn't very often, you weren't the only prodigy at instigating and being gone before the sh!t hit the fan).

I had principals as well, but when they ran counter to what my parents' view on principals were, there was hell to pay. My parents were like the friggin FBI when it came to my activities. They knew who, where, when, how and why anything I was doing was going on. Obviously they can't be everywhere at once and I had plenty of opportunities to act out and misbehave. However, that was largely mitigated by the fact that my parents were in face of the other parents asking about anything us kids were going to do at another kids house. So now, the host parents were watching us like hawks as well.

Visibility breeds accountability. My parents knew I was a good kid, with good values, but they also knew I was a kid with a really active imagination and a college reading level in grammar school. So they stepped up their parenting to manage me in what I was doing and when I was doing it. There were instances where we came to a draw in a contest of wills, but I'll never truely be able to say that I was ahead in any of the ongoing tallies.

My parents were very good at finding all the other parents in the neighborhood with similar parenting styles, and organizing them to watch for any little marauding packs of kids with me or the other kids in it. They were proactive in making sure that I knew they and the other parents were watching as well. It didn't stop me from trying, but when things didn't go my way, they didn't let up on the discipline. When I had an apology to make, they were right there behind me making sure I made it because they knew I'd do the exact same thing you did if they weren't.

Trust me, my parents and us kids are no poster children for Modern Family, but they got the job done and made sure we all knew as kids that they were watching us, and that there would be consequences that would be carried out if we didn't tow the line.

Cheers,

Oskaar

 

[pain]

Actually quite easy... as most parents are quite ignorant of the many common household chemicals that can be used to make explosives, so even if the kids truthfully described what they were doing (process they were following), and the chemicals they were using (common household cleaners), without ever mentioning what the desired end result would be (explosives), it's quite conceivable the parents would have no idea and the kids could pass it off as a science experiment. Kids are very good at deceiving their parents, I know I was.

Err, Wrath, you don't have kids, do you? 'Cause dude, I see my kid every day all day, and when her behavior changes, I'm all over it. You don't look for *bombs*, you look for changes in the *kid*. And if my kid started wearing black, acting sullen and disrespectful, and hanging out with hoodlums, I'd search the house and outbuildings from top to bottom, and sure as *hell* would find the bomb/automatic weapons, or whatever. Those kids in Columbine would never have gotten away with what they did, if their parents had been paying attention. And frankly, I think that the parents should be held responsible along with the kids, and get the same penalties.

To me, good parents know what their kids are doing, where they're going, and how they're feeling. My daughter tells me whats going on in her life because I listen and don't judge. I don't randomly punish, and I support her in her activities, so long as they're 'by the book'.

Vicky - I'd *know*

 

[pain]

Hi Teren. Sorry dear, you got caught up in one of my Hot Button rants. Let me start over:

Welcome to Gotmead! We're glad to have you here. The FAQ is here.
Explore, ask questions, voice opinions, I'm into free speech, just strong-minded about labeling.

Anyway, I'm glad you're here, and you're most welcome!

 

[Johnnybladers]

Hi,
Vicky, "wearing black" hardly denotes much of anything(nor does unnatural hair color or style, tattoos or piercings). Seems a bit of grouping ;D Sorry, but I just couldn't help doing a little teasing since we're all getting along again >. I also realize you said CHANGES in behavior/style.
On a slighty more serious note, also highlighting the near uselessness of labels, your description of your views is very nearly a mirror of my own views yet I would label myself as moderately conservative, not liberal. Things that make ya go "Hmmmm".
Jon

 

[pain]

Um, Jonny, with my kid, it would. It's not labeling at all, it's knowing my daughter. She hates black clothes, and doesn't have any. For her, that would indicate a pretty radical change, as would unnatural hair color. She doesn't wear jewelry, has no piercings or tattoos and doesn't want any, doesn't color her hair, or wear 'odd' clothes (that being what is different from what all the other kids wear). So, yes, in this case, it means a *lot*. I'd react just as strongly if she suddenly started dressing in all frilly clothes and telling me she's no longer interested in shooting with us. My kid is a major outdoor/tomboy type.

And I don't label myself as conservative or liberal. I am a seeker of truth, and there seems damn little of *that* in either camp from what I've been told by politics, media or people.

Oh, and just FYI, I like black clothes (always have, even before it was 'goth'), have unnatural hair, and both tattoos and piercings, so I'd be the last one to label that way. I get tagged as 'weird' by most every group of friends I have.

My civil war skirmish team and the other teams think I'm a weird hippie chick who dresses funny, my SCA and Ren Faire friends think its odd that I can stand to hang out with the *very* 'traditional' civil war skirmishing group (mostly, there are some who are not, but most are fairly big on religion, kids, guns, and down on alternative lifestyles and 'weird' stuff (as they define it, not me) - at least in the group I hang with). My work friends think *both* groups are weird, and my family friends just think *I'm* weird. My daughters' parents *know* I'm weird, and her friends think I'm some strange hippie throwback, but usually dub me 'cool' (that will end soon, now that they're all teenagers, I'm sure).

So, labeling is one of the last things I do, since I get it on me pretty much every day.

 

[WRATHWILDE]

I did luck out as a kid, my parents were divorced by the time I was in 2nd grade... So mostly single working parent upbringing. My dad tended to move every two years, so no long term relationship with other parents to interfere, and other parents loved me... hehe, their kids seemed to get in much less trouble when I was around. Granted most of my friends were bigger troublemakers than myself, but only because they weren't thinking ahead, something I always did. There's a difference between kids who are impulsive and kids who are methodical, I fell into the later category... I kept a lot of friends from making stupid impulsive mistakes, and got them to put a little thought and planning into it instead. That's not saying I stopped them from doing what they were going to do, just telling them how to minimize the risks of whatever they were going to do. I always stayed away from the high risk adventures, where I felt the chances of getting caught were too great, and I was usually right, with those they usually got caught.
Regardless of my personal mood or feelings, my interactions with people are always friendly, even if I want to rip your throat out, you'll always get simple courtesy and respect, regardless, up until the point YOU hit me, then I don't talk much.
All kids are different, and I'll agree they seem to be a self centered disrespectful lot at the moment, but there are those of us who can, and did, fly under the radar. If I were your kid Vicky, and you were looking for behavior changes, you wouldn't have found anything to tip you off. Outwardly I was the polite respectful young republican who got good grades, always told the truth (it was a game I was very good at, I just left out the more unpleasant truths) and was never rude or disrespectful. Of course being a young republican in your household would have raised the alarm, but it has taken my dad this long to admit that maybe "W" isn't God v2.0.

When my brother and I were young, he used to get in trouble because he'd lie about what happened... I would tell the absolute truth, only I'd swap my name for his... he'd get sent to his room, spanked or whatever the punishment of the day was and I'd be out playing with my friends. >

Wrathwilde (Who was a big believer in the truth, or a variation of it, shall set you free.)

 

[Oskaar]

Wrath,

I gotta tell you that you'd have been screwed, blued and tattooed in our neighborhood. Like I said, my family isn't going to make the cover of Modern Family, but my parents and other parents that I know are keenly aware of what their kids are doing. Especially when they are "not" doing something. Every kid thinks they are smarter than their parents and can fool them. Trust me, I'm a consumate actor and manipulator, but my parents knew that. Hell, where do you think I learned it from? So as great an actor as I thought I was, they were still on to me 99.9% of the time. Like I said, there were things I got away with, but I don't know of any kids (myself included) that got away with everything unless it was the parents' choice to let them.

Basically in my experience it comes down to the parents seeing what is going on and deciding to let the kid think they're getting away with something. Most of the time it's harmless kid stuff like playing tap-tap, knick-knock, rope-a-dope or sumsuch. But when it has the potential for anything more than good natured harmless fun, they jump in and stop it. Like I said, I think in every kid's mind they are geniuses up against parents who are very smart but no match for their sneakiness, manipulation and acting. From my experience and observation of friends with kids, the parents have been the ones who are watching with feigned surprise and more than just a little amusement.

Cheers,

Oskaar

 

[JayH]

I always knew that my mom knew about lots that I did, but I still thought I got a way with a lot. That is until the wedding of my best friend. We were inseparable from 5th grade when I moved to Alamogordo through college. Well here we were at dinner talking about all the stuff we had done as kids and laughing about it. That is until we realized that both of our mom’s were listening.

It was then they started telling us about all of the things that we thought we had gotten away with, they knew it all. When I asked my mom why she let us get away do it, she said every kid has to think that they have secret from their parents, so as long as were weren’t hurting anyone we got keep them.

She was a wise woman knowing what to stop and what to overlook.


Cheers
Jay

 

[WRATHWILDE]

I gotta tell you that you'd have been screwed, blued and tattooed in our neighborhood.

Could be, I just am saying that my parents were all for discipline, knowing where I was, and with who... but I learned very quick the process by which they used to trap or check up on me and was very careful to never put my self in the position that they could find out more than I wanted them to know. The fact that my brother never got away with anything had a lot to do with the fact that he couldn't regulate his emotions, and was prone to openly rebel... which doesn't instill a parent with trust. And I was very big on keeping and building my parents trust, and the trust of every parent, teacher or other authority I dealt with.
My Step Dad was a District Attorney, prosecuting, and a Police Officer in Southern California for 15 years previous to that. Before he and my mom divorced he searched the entire house, with police escort, for certain things, jewelry he'd given my mom, when it came time to search my room (where the jewelry was stashed by the way) he asked me point blank if I was concealing anything of his in my room. Back story - I hated him at that point (he had sent my mom shopping in the next town... drained their bank accounts and canceled all their credit cards, including gas cards, while she was out.) then filed for divorce leaving her with nothing. To say I hated him at that point would have been understatement of the year, I wanted to kill him, but I treated him exactly the same as any other time in our relationship. I looked him in the eye and said "No." with no more emotion or concern than if he'd asked me if I wanted a piece of toast. He said "You I trust." left my room alone but tore through the rest of the house. That was my gift - cultivating trust, and it goes a long way.
Oh, and the other codes I lived by were never, ever, rat on your friends (disliked my brother while growing up so that wasn't a breech). Never admit to anything in front of an authority figure (or anybody else actually) even if they seem to be 100% behind or in favor the situation.

Listen, observe, say as little as possible, make sure you only speak the truth, offer it up freely and cheerfully, and let the conversation meander to other areas without ever seeming to have changed the subject. You know as the conversation progresses pick up on more or less innocent threads, throw in some humor, thoughts and observations along those lines and pretty soon you've nudged the conversation into an honest dialog on an innocent subject. It's hard to be accused of changing the subject when it started and progressed along topic lines they initiated, even if it wasn't the one's they intended to discuss. The trick is to prod the common ground and values you both share or respect until they are left with the impression that you are a bright, honest, level headed young adult that they'd be proud to call their own.

Cheers,
Wrathwilde

 

[Oskaar]

Dude,

Sorry you had to go through that!

My Dad was one of those "Old Country" strict kind of guys. Former Navy Petty Officer, Shore Patrol, tough as a coffin nail and meaner than a wounded wolverine. ALL of the rest of the Dads on the block gave him a wide berth, except one other guy who wasn't at all imposing, just a very frank and honest kind of guy. My dad actually liked him and our families hung out together. My dad could see that honesty in people intuitively. I'm the same way. I can pretty much spot an a$$hole a mile away before I see their face or hear their voice.

Don't know if you've ever been to Croatia or any other of the Eastern Block Countries, but when they take your passport they have this way of staring right through you when they are asking you questions before sending you through the border checkpoint. You just know in your mind that they know every answer before they ask the question. My dad must have taught them how to do that look, so I learned from an early age to control my breathing, body language, eye movement, what I was thinking and how it affected my facial expressions.

I use that look now on my nieces and nephews. They crack me up when I hear them whispering "He knows" LOL

Cheers,

Oskaar