Bentonite BEFORE Fermenting?

[Medsen Fey]

A couple of thoughts:

1) Bentonite during fermentation has been well documented in wines and several folks have done it in meads. It generally produces less foaming and faster clearing. In wines, the lees from batches treated during primary with Bentonite are prone to producing sulfur odors and such wines should not be kept on the lees. I have not heard of such sulfur issues with meads treated with Bentonite in primary and it may not be as common if there is no fruit pulp. If you see it start to become stinky let us know.

2) When doing your ABV calculations for step feeds, you need to take volume addition into account. You added at least a pint of volume (probably more) from the sound of it, so if you didn't factor that in, your actual ABV is probably 1-2% lower (Of course that is still a plenty-strong batch).

3) It is a little unusual for an EC-1118 batch to taste good while still cloudy, but hey, your honey and your managment here have produced a good result. When it is clear, it should be even better.

 

[joemirando]

A couple of thoughts:

1) Bentonite during fermentation has been well documented in wines and several folks have done it in meads. It generally produces less foaming and faster clearing. In wines, the lees from batches treated during primary with Bentonite are prone to producing sulfur odors and such wines should not be kept on the lees. I have not heard of such sulfur issues with meads treated with Bentonite in primary and it may not be as common if there is no fruit pulp. If you see it start to become stinky let us know.

Thanks for the heads-up. I will be on the lookout. There's no fruit in this one, just honey, tea, nutrient/energizer and a little bit of calcium carbonate from when it dipped closer to 3.0 than I was comfortable with.

2) When doing your ABV calculations for step feeds, you need to take volume addition into account. You added at least a pint of volume (probably more) from the sound of it, so if you didn't factor that in, your actual ABV is probably 1-2% lower (Of course that is still a plenty-strong batch).

No, I dont need to factor that in. For ONCE, I thought ahead and I left enough headspace at the beginning so that I didn't have to mess with that, and the total mix topped off at 1 gallon. But you're right; even if I had had to make allowances, this is a strong batch; a total of 4.75 lbs of honey to a gallon batch.

3) It is a little unusual for an EC-1118 batch to taste good while still cloudy, but hey, your honey and your managment here have produced a good result. When it is clear, it should be even better.

The honey was store brand (BJ's) clover honey at the price of $8.00/3 lbs. And yeah, it tastes pretty darned good right now. Of course, there's the yeast still all in suspension to give it that "wanna fresh baked piece of bread with that" taste/smell, but subtracting that, its really quite good.

I had added the bentonite on a lark, just to see how it changed things (of course, if I were REALLY interested, I would have done a side-by-side), and I'm kind of glad that I did. I don't think I'll pre-bentonite every batch I make from now on, but it IS worth having tried, and its another little trick to keep in my bag for when I experiment.

Once this one is ready, I may oak it, or a portion of it. I can imagine a slightly darker, softer, vanilla-ish finish to this one. Of course, I may just drink it all before that's an option.

Once this has cleared, I plan on making the same batch again, but with Pasteur Red and keep a log of it here. I'm sure that, by the time I'm done, everyone will be sick and tired of reading about every little SG change. <G>


Joe

 

[Medsen Fey]

No, I dont need to factor that in. For ONCE, I thought ahead and I left enough headspace at the beginning so that I didn't have to mess with that, and the total mix topped off at 1 gallon.

You still have to factor in dilution. If you just add up the gravity points, you'll overestimate. You started with a gravity of 1.106, but it must have been in a volume of around 6.5 pints or less. When diluted up to a gallon the effective starting gravity drops to 1.086, so your virtual 1.171 would be closer to 1.151

 

[kuri]

You still have to factor in dilution. If you just add up the gravity points, you'll overestimate. You started with a gravity of 1.106, but it must have been in a volume of around 6.5 pints or less. When diluted up to a gallon the effective starting gravity drops to 1.086, so your virtual 1.171 would be closer to 1.151

Just checking the mead calculator, 4.5 pounds of honey in 1 gallon gives an SG of 1.162. With an FG of 1.010 that comes to 19.13% alcohol. So Medsen is probably onto something here.

 

[joemirando]

You still have to factor in dilution. If you just add up the gravity points, you'll overestimate. You started with a gravity of 1.106, but it must have been in a volume of around 6.5 pints or less. When diluted up to a gallon the effective starting gravity drops to 1.086, so your virtual 1.171 would be closer to 1.151

Except that there was no dilution, only 'enrichment'. I didn't add up the gravity points; I added weight. There was plenty of headspace for the 4.75 total lbs of honey. It came to 1 gallon and enough to bring the level to 1/4" below the stopper of the 1 gallon jug. I added honey by adding it to a measure of the must, mixing the hell out of it, then adding it back to the jug. The biggest problem here is starting with under 3 quarts of water. It made the initial honey/water mix quite thick and I have accounted for that.

The TOTAL mix was 1 gallon total, with 4.75 lbs of that being honey. Four and three quarters pounds of honey went in, no water came out. That gives me a 'virtual' SG of 1.171, with a maximum ABV of 21.17%.

Since the current SG is 1.010, that gives a current ABV of 20.11%

Regardless, its a surprising development, considering all the things I experimented with on this one.

Joe

 

[joemirando]

Just checking the mead calculator, 4.5 pounds of honey in 1 gallon gives an SG of 1.162. With an FG of 1.010 that comes to 19.13% alcohol. So Medsen is probably onto something here.

True, except that it was 4.75 lbs in a 1 gallon total mix (3lbs + 0.5 lbs + 5.0 oz + 5.0 oz + 5.0 oz + 5.0 oz).


Joe

 

[joemirando]

You still have to factor in dilution. If you just add up the gravity points, you'll overestimate. You started with a gravity of 1.106, but it must have been in a volume of around 6.5 pints or less. When diluted up to a gallon the effective starting gravity drops to 1.086, so your virtual 1.171 would be closer to 1.151

Let me see if I can put it a different way.

Imagine putting 4.75 lbs of honey in a gallon jug and topping it off with water.
That is what I did, except that I added the honey a bit at a time. I took precautions beforehand so I would not have to dilute or remove anything, only add honey.

The end result is exactly the same as it would have been had I dumped the 4.75 lbs of honey in right at the start. Doing it this way IS more complicated, but it avoids dilution, since every bit of water that's going into the must is going in right at the start, and stays there.


Joe

 

[Medsen Fey]

I understand what you are saying, and what you did, and this is no doubt a high ABV batch. However, if you started with 3 pounds of honey and water up to 6.5 pints, I would have expected your starting gravity to have been a lot higher than 1.106 (close to 1.135 if your honey matches the mead calculator). So actual numbers can be used through this process rather than estimates from the mead calculator, but changes in volume must be included in the calculations when you step feed if you want to keep tabs on what you actually have in terms of ABV.

 

[joemirando]

The gravity readings are corrected for the finished batch. The actual SG was indeed close to 1.135 (1.134 with a 'standard' 2-points-per-line hydrometer).

For my next batch, I will use the actual SGs instead of adjusting for the finished batch, and start with less honey. I hadn't starting out intending to make it that heavy, but by the time I realized it, the honey was in the jug, so I decided to "get creative".

The bottom line is still that there is 4.75 lbs of honey that went into a 1 gallon batch with no water/lowerSG must coming out.

I made it more complicated than it needed to be, and I will correct that the next time around. I'm a QA manager. I LIVE on procedures, but I live TO modify them. <grin>

The next batch I make, I'll take pictures along the way. But I warn you all; it'll be worse than sitting through Aunty Fanny's slides of the big trip to see the world's largest teflon coated skillet. <chuckling>

Joe

 

[Medsen Fey]

The gravity readings are corrected for the finished batch. The actual SG was indeed close to 1.135 (1.134 with a 'standard' 2-points-per-line hydrometer).

OK. So you made the adjustment in the gravity for the volume changes. Excellent. Now I'm following (a little slowly, but following).

 

[joemirando]

OK. So you made the adjustment in the gravity for the volume changes. Excellent. Now I'm following (a little slowly, but following).

Nah, I made it much more complicated than it needed to be. I looked back and realized that I didn't say "the SGs are adjusted for the final mix". The problem is that at this point, everything is subject to change. Wait till the next round when I know what I'm talking about... sorta. <grin>

And if someone had given ME the info that I listed with that crucial key missing, I'd probably have been ranting about it being impossible.

So the next time I'll have everything listed and documented and pictureated. If the pasteur red comes out even as well as this one (taking into account its a lower alcohol tolerance yeast), I'll be very very happy.... but I expect it to be BETTER in the flavor/aroma department.


Joe

 

[EJM3]

OK, Necro-posting here. You start a new experimental batch yet??

 

[joemirando]

OK, Necro-posting here. You start a new experimental batch yet??

I haven't gotten around to another test batch. I can tell you that the 'frankenmead' I've got going now (a hodgepodge of left over musts) could have benefited greatly from some bentonite. I decided to not add bentonite to the must because I'm pretty sure I'm going to need it post-fermentation for clearing, and there's only so much bentonite you can add before you end up getting a nasty metallic taste. The Frankenmead (or Polyjuice Potion, as I'm calling it) consists of leftover musts from a couple of traditionals, a pomegranate mel, cherry mel, a cyser and a tea metheglin. The cherry and pomegranate (the pomegranate especially) foam up like crazy. I'm not sure if its the kind of thing that bentonite would take care of, but if I had stopped to think about it, I WOULD have added the bentonite. I'll keep you posted.

Joe

The next batch I make will be using bentonite.

 

[EbonHawk]

Haha, Frankenmead! Love it.

I was just pondering a pomegranate mead. Did you by chance make a full batch of pomegranate mead? I guess that would be a melomel, right? Anything you learned that I might should watch out for, besides the foaming?

 

[joemirando]

Haha, Frankenmead! Love it.

I was just pondering a pomegranate mead. Did you by chance make a full batch of pomegranate mead? I guess that would be a melomel, right? Anything you learned that I might should watch out for, besides the foaming?

I wish I could take credit for the "Frankenmead" moniker, but in truth it was somebody else's... As was "Polyjuice" (in addition to and because of the 'Harry Potter' reference).

I have made two one gallon batches with pomegranate juice (POM brand). One was a pomegranate/honey wine, the other was a pomegranate melomel. The difference being the percentage of fermentable sugars from each. The melomel gets >50% of its sugar from honey, the wine <50%.

I found that pomegranate juice (as I've already said) causes it to foam like crazy. In addition, I found that pH is a real issue. I would recommend higher than average vigilance when using pom juice.

The other thing is that I had some very stressed yeast in the melomel. The first time I racked it, I had to look under the table to see if a medium sized rodent had crawled under there and died. It was "rotten egg PLUS" on the scale of "stinky stuff". I ran it over and through a copper scrub pad a couple of times, and that reduced the stench quite a bit. It is bulk aging now, and I haven't touched it in a month or two. I had hoped to have it ready for later this month for my father's birthday (he love pomegranate anything), but I fear it'll have to wait till next year now.

There was also a bit more sediment than usual, and I attribute that to the natural sediment in the pom juice.

There are a couple of people here on the forum with more experience with pomegranate juice than I (bernardsmith for one), and maybe they'll chime in.

If I remember correctly, the pomegranate melomel used 2.5 lbs of clover honey, balance pom juice (a little more than 3.2 liters), pectic enzyme (which didn't seem to do any good), nutrient and energizer (not enough, evidently... If i made this again, I'd front-load all the nutrient/energizer and step feed the honey), and K1V yeast starter. The OG was pretty high, and that may also have added to the rotten egg smell, but I dont think so because the stench wasn't noticeable until fermentation was pretty much done.

As I said, If I made this again, I'd keep the OG to about 1.120 and add the balance of the honey as the yeast did its thing.

Be well,
Joe

 

[EbonHawk]

Ok, cool, thanks. Your dad and I have something in common then: I like pomegranate-anythings as well. If toothpaste came in pomegranate flavor, my wife said I'd have some of that too.

 

[Get_Wiggly]

With the pomegranate juice I'd consider adding K2CO3 to get a higher pH.

 

[Noe Palacios]

Hey gang,

I was just reading an article about wine making were the author espoused the use of bentonite in the must, before fermentation. His/her reason for doing this is based on the theory that the bentonite will swirl around in the must, providing nucleation points for the CO2, which will rise, allowing the CO2 to leave the must, and the bentonite particle to sink back to the bottom to begin the process again.

Has anyone added bentonite at this point, instead of on finishing? If so, was it worth it? Are there downsides?


Thanks,

Joe

Hello Joe!

I read another explanation about bentonite use before fermentation, but your explanation make sense too. When you do some laboratory distilling you usually leave inside the glass one or two distilling pearls, which create boiling centers which allows a better distilation.

However, what I read about bentonite use before fermenting is that yeast will be atracted to bentonite which should contribute on the clarifying process. This waht I read.

Saludos.