the fish safe silicone has no antibacterial additives as the other 'bathtub caulk has for a good reason. I don't know if it is officially good safe, but it wouldn't bother me a bit.
First-timer - two questions about yeast
- Thread starter Hagroth
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All right, I ended up buying a new bucket instead. Anyway, the batches are doing about -10 every week, equal to a little more than 1%. Currently:
pH: Dry: 3,4-3,6; Sweet: 3,6
Sweet:
OG = 115 = 1.115; SG = 51 = 1.051
((1.05 * (1.115 - 1.051)) / 1.051 ) / 0.79 = 8,1%
Dry:
OG = 102 = 1.102; SG = 10 = 1.010
((1.05 * (1.102 - 1.010)) / 1.010 ) / 0.79 = 12,1%
I have managed to speed up the process in the dry batch by adding potassium carbonate and increasing the pH-value by 0,4. I'm not sure if it was due to the potassium carbonate but I suppose it's a good guess. The sweet batch has remained at its constant pace of -10 every week. Potassium carbonate once increased its pH and speed, but the last time I added more potassium carbonate (another teaspoon), the pH didn't increase at all (hasn't by now either) and neither did the speed.
So:
1) Is it possible the sweet batch has reached it's maximum pH-level, no matter how much potassium carbonate I pour in there? Maybe it can't accumulate any more?
2) As you can see, my dry batch has gone past 11%, up in the 12% now and hasn't shown any signs of slowing down as it's still in the same pace as last week. This is in spite of the fact that according to the manufacturer, the maximum percentage for this strain is 11%! Is this normal, will it continue much further, should I tae any precautions etc.?
Thanks!
pH: Dry: 3,4-3,6; Sweet: 3,6
Sweet:
OG = 115 = 1.115; SG = 51 = 1.051
((1.05 * (1.115 - 1.051)) / 1.051 ) / 0.79 = 8,1%
Dry:
OG = 102 = 1.102; SG = 10 = 1.010
((1.05 * (1.102 - 1.010)) / 1.010 ) / 0.79 = 12,1%
I have managed to speed up the process in the dry batch by adding potassium carbonate and increasing the pH-value by 0,4. I'm not sure if it was due to the potassium carbonate but I suppose it's a good guess. The sweet batch has remained at its constant pace of -10 every week. Potassium carbonate once increased its pH and speed, but the last time I added more potassium carbonate (another teaspoon), the pH didn't increase at all (hasn't by now either) and neither did the speed.
So:
1) Is it possible the sweet batch has reached it's maximum pH-level, no matter how much potassium carbonate I pour in there? Maybe it can't accumulate any more?
2) As you can see, my dry batch has gone past 11%, up in the 12% now and hasn't shown any signs of slowing down as it's still in the same pace as last week. This is in spite of the fact that according to the manufacturer, the maximum percentage for this strain is 11%! Is this normal, will it continue much further, should I tae any precautions etc.?
Thanks!
Update: It's now at a gravity of 1.005 ~ 12.8% ABV! Wouldn't that mean it's almost like water, meaning that pretty much all sugar has been used? In the last few days, it's been going at the same speed post 12% as before reaching 12%. It's very clear, smells wonderful and tastes pretty good. Strong, and not too sweet. And what if I'd bottle it while still sparkling (which means it's still fermenting a bit, am I right?), I'd probably need champagne bottles in that case right? How long would they hold before exploding?
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Unless you've started off with a batch you're sure will go to completion and still have some yeast capacity left, making a sparkling batch isn't something to do on a whim or you have a serious risk of bottle bombs. I haven't done the math but if your mead would finish out at .995 (I've had mine go as low as .990) from 1.005, that's WAY too much carbonation, not safe...
Yeah.
Don't do it.
Ferment it out.
If you think the yeast has oomph left, add a measured amount of sugar when you bottle. This is safe.
Don't do it.
Ferment it out.
If you think the yeast has oomph left, add a measured amount of sugar when you bottle. This is safe.
Well, it's gone all the way from 1.102 to 1.005. How do you appreciate the amount of carbonation here? Because if I get it right, carbonation is sort of fermentation isn't it? Albeit a very slow one?
I'll check tomorrow to see if it's started to slow down.
kudapucat, I see, so to have a sparkling wine, you add some sugar AFTER fermentation has finished? I'm not really aiming for a sparkling mead, but I was just wondering
Which brings me to something I've been wondering for a while - if carbonation is a form of fermenting, and if you have champagne for instance, wouldn't pressure be built up greatly over the years and smash the bottle sooner or later? Or is that prohibited by the fact that corks aren't 100% air-proof and might allow some gas to slip out when pressure is built up?I also came up with another idea - if I'd like to bring some of my mead to a party in a few weeks, and it's still fermenting a little bit (or just some carbonation) (however, fermenting is bound to have stopped by then because my yeast has already surpassed its tolerance at 11% by 1,5%!), would a plastic coke bottle be safer? I won't have time to really store the couple of bottles I'd like to bring anyway, so I was thinking perhaps a coke bottle would allow some gas to slip out (since they aren't completely air-proof) and thus prevent an explosion?
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If its active, and you unscrew the top regularly, you could put it in any bottle.
As for champagne. It's fermented dry. It doesn't keep fermenting, because there's no sugar left to ferment.
It's calculating the residual sugar that's hard, so we just wait til it's finished, degass then add a measured amount.
The yeast eat this measured amount, make it sparkle, run out of food and go to sleep.
Corking an active ferment is dangerous, because you don't know how much sugar remains.
You don't know how much CO2 is already in the wine.
There are a couple other dangerous unknowns, but these are the biggest.
As for champagne. It's fermented dry. It doesn't keep fermenting, because there's no sugar left to ferment.
It's calculating the residual sugar that's hard, so we just wait til it's finished, degass then add a measured amount.
The yeast eat this measured amount, make it sparkle, run out of food and go to sleep.
Corking an active ferment is dangerous, because you don't know how much sugar remains.
You don't know how much CO2 is already in the wine.
There are a couple other dangerous unknowns, but these are the biggest.
The reason I thought champagne was still fermenting was because I thought the sparkling was CO2 bubbles produced by the yeast as they eat the sugar. I just found out that's not quite the case - the "bubbles" are produced by the fact that the air in the bottle is carbon dioxide and are the result of the reaction between the carbon dioxide and the liquid, if I understand things correctly.
Please allow me to elaborate: while yeast are doing their thing merrily eating your sugar and turning it into alcohol, they also produce CO2, which is initially dissolved in the must. This is always going on during your fermentations, but because we use an airlock to maintain a pressure equal to the atmosphere, the must will only hold a certain amount (depends on pressure and temperature) and the rest comes out solution, increasing the pressure within your vessel which will then equalize with the atmosphere by escaping through your airlock.
If you allow your vessel to be closed up tight, the pressure will build up as the amount of dissolved CO2 increases as the yeast keep producing more and there's nowhere for it to go, this will continue until the yeast finish the sugar or the pressure causes the vessel to burst.
What you're doing when you bottle carbonate is a very measured amount of fermentation to give you a measured amount of carbon dioxide which you know will be safe for your vessel.
If you want to retain some "sparkle" in a currently-fermenting mead, a pop bottle is a safe way to go, you can squeeze the bottle and if it gets too hard, let some pressure off... or you could see if you can find one of the older pop bottle lids where you can pop the gasket out, if you put a pinhole in the middle of the gasket and drill a hole in the middle of the cap and then put it all back together, it'll allow some gas to vent (ie, the excess, dangerous amount) but it'll hold onto most of it. This is how the "Brew in a bottle" beer I've made a few times is done, if you can find that at your local store it might be worth the $5 just to have a cap you know is rated for a plastic pop bottle. There's another company that sells just the caps in Australia but I've gone and forgotten the name, maybe Kudapukat remembers.
If you allow your vessel to be closed up tight, the pressure will build up as the amount of dissolved CO2 increases as the yeast keep producing more and there's nowhere for it to go, this will continue until the yeast finish the sugar or the pressure causes the vessel to burst.
What you're doing when you bottle carbonate is a very measured amount of fermentation to give you a measured amount of carbon dioxide which you know will be safe for your vessel.
If you want to retain some "sparkle" in a currently-fermenting mead, a pop bottle is a safe way to go, you can squeeze the bottle and if it gets too hard, let some pressure off... or you could see if you can find one of the older pop bottle lids where you can pop the gasket out, if you put a pinhole in the middle of the gasket and drill a hole in the middle of the cap and then put it all back together, it'll allow some gas to vent (ie, the excess, dangerous amount) but it'll hold onto most of it. This is how the "Brew in a bottle" beer I've made a few times is done, if you can find that at your local store it might be worth the $5 just to have a cap you know is rated for a plastic pop bottle. There's another company that sells just the caps in Australia but I've gone and forgotten the name, maybe Kudapukat remembers.
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The co2 is produced by the yeast eating the sugar. So is the alcohol.
The co2 dissolves into the brew.
Under pressure, more of it dissolves.
When you pop the cork, the pressure reduces, the co2 comes out of solution, and bubbles to the surface.
The co2 dissolves into the brew.
Under pressure, more of it dissolves.
When you pop the cork, the pressure reduces, the co2 comes out of solution, and bubbles to the surface.
Ah thanks, makes sense now.
Update:
2012-10-07
Sweet:
OG = 115 = 1.115; SG = 44 = 1.044
((1.05 * (1.115 - 1.044)) / 1.044 ) / 0.79 = 9%
Dry:
OG = 102 = 1.102; SG = 1 = 1.001
((1.05 * (1.102 - 1.001)) / 1.001 ) / 0.79 = 13,4%
The dry batch has surpassed its tolerance by 2,4%! Hasn't shown any signs of slowing down, except for a decrease (compared a bit more than to one week ago) of about 0,25 SG/day, so it's now at -1,25 SG/day. It might be slowing down a bit but it's got to stop soon enough.
Also, the sweet mead still hasn't increased its pH after the potassium carbonate I poured in weeks ago! The speed has also slowed down to -1 SG/day. Is it possible the sweet batch has reached it's maximum pH-level, no matter how much potassium carbonate I pour in there? Maybe it can't accumulate any more?
Update:
2012-10-07
Sweet:
OG = 115 = 1.115; SG = 44 = 1.044
((1.05 * (1.115 - 1.044)) / 1.044 ) / 0.79 = 9%
Dry:
OG = 102 = 1.102; SG = 1 = 1.001
((1.05 * (1.102 - 1.001)) / 1.001 ) / 0.79 = 13,4%
The dry batch has surpassed its tolerance by 2,4%! Hasn't shown any signs of slowing down, except for a decrease (compared a bit more than to one week ago) of about 0,25 SG/day, so it's now at -1,25 SG/day. It might be slowing down a bit but it's got to stop soon enough.
Also, the sweet mead still hasn't increased its pH after the potassium carbonate I poured in weeks ago! The speed has also slowed down to -1 SG/day. Is it possible the sweet batch has reached it's maximum pH-level, no matter how much potassium carbonate I pour in there? Maybe it can't accumulate any more?
I had the same problem when trying to adjust my aquarium's pH when I was a kid, something in there was buffering it and it kept returning to the same pH within a couple of days no matter how much of what I added. But looking at the theory on how chemical reactions work when you're neutralizing an acid, there shouldn't be a limit like that until you've reached the solubility limit for potassium carbonate which should be pretty high, but there can be buffering effects that keep knocking it back to where it was. Don't forget, the yeast continue to produce acid, so they may be responsible for the returns to your low pH.
I see, well I'm not sure if I dare to add any more to be honest. Not for a while anyway. The speed is fairly constant right now so it'll do.
The dry batch has finally started to slow down by the way, and has now reached 1.000 (13.55% ABV), now progressing at just -0.5 units per day, in comparison to -1.25 units per day a week ago.
Hey again,
The meads have now stopped fermenting. I actually bottled the dry batch (which finished first) directly after it had stopped and brought some with me on a trip. It was pretty decent and appreciated It got a little too dry though thanks to the yeast transgressing the supposed tolerance level at 11% by 2.6% and thus ended up at 13.6%. The sweet mead stopped at 9.3%, 1.7% short of 11%.
Now this has started to get me wondering whether I should rely on yeast packages' supposed alcohol tolerances or if I should completely ignore those? What truth is in those numbers anyway? Can I get a 11% ABV batch from a 19% tolerance yeast by adjusting the OG so that the batch will have reached 11% by the time it's reached about 1.000 in gravity (which is where meads are supposed to end up, isn't it?). Perhaps I should just stick to Lalvin EC-1118 for all upcoming yeasts no matter what ABV I'm after?
The meads have now stopped fermenting. I actually bottled the dry batch (which finished first) directly after it had stopped and brought some with me on a trip. It was pretty decent and appreciated
It got a little too dry though thanks to the yeast transgressing the supposed tolerance level at 11% by 2.6% and thus ended up at 13.6%. The sweet mead stopped at 9.3%, 1.7% short of 11%.Now this has started to get me wondering whether I should rely on yeast packages' supposed alcohol tolerances or if I should completely ignore those? What truth is in those numbers anyway? Can I get a 11% ABV batch from a 19% tolerance yeast by adjusting the OG so that the batch will have reached 11% by the time it's reached about 1.000 in gravity (which is where meads are supposed to end up, isn't it?). Perhaps I should just stick to Lalvin EC-1118 for all upcoming yeasts no matter what ABV I'm after?
Yeast tolerance to alcohol depends on how well it's treated. I've had them stall out a little early, and also over-achieve.
If you're fermenting dry, then it only matters that the tolerance is not reached, so 11% using EC-1118 is wholly achievable if you ferment the batch dry.
The tolerance is also used to aid the 'artform' of residual sweetness. It's a bit hit and miss though.
I wouldn't use EC-1118 though. There are kinder yeasts that give better flavours. I tend to use K1V-1116 or D47
As they're readily available.
EC1118 is very aggressive, and can blow off delicate aromas. If you use it, slow it down by keeping it extra cool. It can make nasty stuff if you run it bear the top of its temp tolerance, or alcohol tolerance.
If you're fermenting dry, then it only matters that the tolerance is not reached, so 11% using EC-1118 is wholly achievable if you ferment the batch dry.
The tolerance is also used to aid the 'artform' of residual sweetness. It's a bit hit and miss though.
I wouldn't use EC-1118 though. There are kinder yeasts that give better flavours. I tend to use K1V-1116 or D47
As they're readily available.
EC1118 is very aggressive, and can blow off delicate aromas. If you use it, slow it down by keeping it extra cool. It can make nasty stuff if you run it bear the top of its temp tolerance, or alcohol tolerance.
The %ages listed in the documentation on yeast will be the average for lab testing, presumably with grape must. So they should be treated as a guideline, not as a be-all and end-all definitive answer. Living organisms have a way of making scientists scratch their heads, why should yeast be any different?
If you start a batch with only enough sugar to get you to 11%, it doesn't matter whether the yeast's tolerance is 19% or 16%, you can only ever get 11% out of that batch.
Different yeasts have different strong points. 71B may not have the alcohol tolerance of EC-1118 but it won't ferment all your delicate aromas right out the airlock, either, but it's ok to forget about EC-1118 and it won't give off-flavours to your mead like leaving a 71B batch on the lees. D47 likes low temperatures and makes harsh fusels at higher fermentation temperatures, where K1V-1116 is known to be good for higher-temp ferments and produces fruity esters when fermented at low temperatures. RC-212 is a whiny-pants nutrient hog in early fermentation, but it sure does a nice job preserving fruity flavours in melomels. Bread yeast is good up to 12% and doesn't seem to gove off-flavours when left on the lees for 6 months to a year but its lees are fluffy and that can hard to manage. I guess what I'm trying to say is that you would want to select your yeast based on more than just its alcohol tolerance.
I think the common consensus around here with Lalvin users would be that K1V might be one of the better go-to yeasts if you're just going to stick with one type.
If you start a batch with only enough sugar to get you to 11%, it doesn't matter whether the yeast's tolerance is 19% or 16%, you can only ever get 11% out of that batch.
Different yeasts have different strong points. 71B may not have the alcohol tolerance of EC-1118 but it won't ferment all your delicate aromas right out the airlock, either, but it's ok to forget about EC-1118 and it won't give off-flavours to your mead like leaving a 71B batch on the lees. D47 likes low temperatures and makes harsh fusels at higher fermentation temperatures, where K1V-1116 is known to be good for higher-temp ferments and produces fruity esters when fermented at low temperatures. RC-212 is a whiny-pants nutrient hog in early fermentation, but it sure does a nice job preserving fruity flavours in melomels. Bread yeast is good up to 12% and doesn't seem to gove off-flavours when left on the lees for 6 months to a year but its lees are fluffy and that can hard to manage. I guess what I'm trying to say is that you would want to select your yeast based on more than just its alcohol tolerance.
I think the common consensus around here with Lalvin users would be that K1V might be one of the better go-to yeasts if you're just going to stick with one type.
Ah, I just used EC-1118 as an example though since it's one that came to mind. But there's one weird thing here, and it's that my sweet mead, using the same yeast with a supposed tolerance of 11%, ended up at just 9.3%. It went from it's OG of 1.115 to just 1.042. 1.042 is pretty far from 1.000, and judging by the density and its taste, there's a lot of sugar left in there. What may have caused th yeast to die off like that so early? If any of the batches should have gone above the tolerance level, it should've been the sweet mead since the only difference between the batches is that the sweet mead had one more kg of honey. I also added a lot of potassium carbonate before it started to slow down. It's all like a huge paradox - the sweeter mead stops earlier than the one with less honey; potassium carbonate didn't increase the pH but (maybe not the cause but there seems to be a connection) for some reason the batch started slowing down when I added the potassium carbonate.
Oh, and thank you, Chevette Girl, you replied before I had a chance to see it. So the only thing you can be sure of is the maximum amount of alcohol that it's going to result in, but it can stop basically anywhere along the way? That's from my experience with my sweet mead anyway, which was nowhere near getting dry nor its yeast's tolerance, yet stopped at 1.042 ~ 9.3 ABV.
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See, that's the thing, the listed tolerance is not a maximum, either... as you've seen from some cases on here as well as yours, the yeast occasionally blows right past its tolerance if the conditions are somehow just right for it.
Now, if I recall, you'd used the wyeast sweet mead yeast which I think is the yeast that has given even very experienced meadmakers problems. Add a fussy-pants yeast to the pH problems you had with that batch, and it's not too surprising it crapped out early. If it's really too sweet, you can always make another drier batch and combine them. Just make sure to stabilize it or depending on the other yeast you use, it may then eat all the leftovers that the sweet mead yeast couldn't handle!
Another factor you might not have thought about, the more honey you start with, the harder a start it is for the yeast, and the harder the start, the higher the risk of an early stall. Not that 1.115 is really high, but it might have been too much for a yeast that's only rated to 11%.
Now, if I recall, you'd used the wyeast sweet mead yeast which I think is the yeast that has given even very experienced meadmakers problems. Add a fussy-pants yeast to the pH problems you had with that batch, and it's not too surprising it crapped out early. If it's really too sweet, you can always make another drier batch and combine them. Just make sure to stabilize it or depending on the other yeast you use, it may then eat all the leftovers that the sweet mead yeast couldn't handle!
Another factor you might not have thought about, the more honey you start with, the harder a start it is for the yeast, and the harder the start, the higher the risk of an early stall. Not that 1.115 is really high, but it might have been too much for a yeast that's only rated to 11%.
Oh, I meant that you can know the maximum possible tolerance by calculating the difference between OG and assuming it'll end up with an FG of 1.000 or 0.995 in the driest scenario.See, that's the thing, the listed tolerance is not a maximum, either... as you've seen from some cases on here as well as yours, the yeast occasionally blows right past its tolerance if the conditions are somehow just right for it.
Now, if I recall, you'd used the wyeast sweet mead yeast which I think is the yeast that has given even very experienced meadmakers problems. Add a fussy-pants yeast to the pH problems you had with that batch, and it's not too surprising it crapped out early. If it's really too sweet, you can always make another drier batch and combine them. Just make sure to stabilize it or depending on the other yeast you use, it may then eat all the leftovers that the sweet mead yeast couldn't handle!
Another factor you might not have thought about, the more honey you start with, the harder a start it is for the yeast, and the harder the start, the higher the risk of an early stall. Not that 1.115 is really high, but it might have been too much for a yeast that's only rated to 11%.
Yes, I've had various problems with this yeast. Very slow fermentation etc. Will definitely give one of the yeasts you people listed a try next time.
One weird thing here is that even though the sweet batch has stopped fermenting, it's still very cloudy/foggy. It used to be fairly clear before I introduced it to a couple of teaspoons of potassium carbonate. Also, it's kind of starting to taste a bit sour. I'm not sure if I might have imagined it since I just had a small mouth of it but I'll try tasting again later today.
And I'm about to buy some glass carboys later today. What would you recommend - should I bottle it straight away directly from the plastic fermenting buckets or perhaps store them inside glass carboys for a month? Is the sour taste due to it not being separated from the sediment (which would mean I should perhaps store it in a glass carboy for a while)?
OK, just checking, not everyone understands right away why their yeast rated for 18% won't give them that if they only feed it enough sugar for 12%
If you're sure it's stopped, yeah, I'd rack it off the lees, although "sour" isn't something I'd associate with leaving it on the lees too long. If it doesn't start clearing within a couple weeks or months (by the time you want your carboy back and are either happy with it or have given up on it and want to bottle it or dispose of it) introduce it to some bentonite... it might drop right clear within a few days. Maybe. Them yeasties are tricksy beasts.
I rarely bottle anything from primary, I'm way too much of a klutz and I always stir everything up with the racking cane while futzing around with the bottles, so even if it's a batch that didn't NEED racking before bottling (like a JAO) I usually rack it a week before I want to bottle it if there's any sediment at all. But most of the time, I rack into secondary as soon as the SG stops moving because there's too much headspace in the plastic fermenter and most of my creations need a couple months to clear anyway.
If you're sure it's stopped, yeah, I'd rack it off the lees, although "sour" isn't something I'd associate with leaving it on the lees too long. If it doesn't start clearing within a couple weeks or months (by the time you want your carboy back and are either happy with it or have given up on it and want to bottle it or dispose of it) introduce it to some bentonite... it might drop right clear within a few days. Maybe. Them yeasties are tricksy beasts.
I rarely bottle anything from primary, I'm way too much of a klutz and I always stir everything up with the racking cane while futzing around with the bottles, so even if it's a batch that didn't NEED racking before bottling (like a JAO) I usually rack it a week before I want to bottle it if there's any sediment at all. But most of the time, I rack into secondary as soon as the SG stops moving because there's too much headspace in the plastic fermenter and most of my creations need a couple months to clear anyway.
