I can't remember how I added it to my meads that were already fermenting. Recently I added it at the beginning and use the stirrer like UKTony mentions. I think this is one of those cases where you should take a little of your must and add the bicarbonate to that and thrash it until it is mixed in and then add that back to your must.
Help needed - problem with a batch
- Thread starter Jim H
- Start date
-
Love Gotmead and want to see it grow? Then consider supporting the site and becoming a Patron! If you're logged in, click on your username to the right of the menu to see how as little as $30/year can get you access to the patron areas and the patron Facebook group and to support Gotmead!
-
We now have a Patron-exclusive Facebook group! Patrons my join at The Gotmead Patron Group. You MUST answer the questions, providing your Patron membership, when you request to join so I can verify your Patron membership. If the questions aren't answered, the request will be turned down.
Mine hadn't stalled, I was just uncomfortable with how low the acidity was, and didn't want the yeasties to croak... but yes, once I got the acidity back up again, fermentation became more vigorous.
The batch that stalled on me, my first one as well, resumed within a day of me adding the potassium bicarbonate but continued at a slower rate since I had probably killed off some of the yeast. Since I wasn't sure what the problem was at first, I had also added a handful of raisins cut up and some boiled yeast as well and they didn't help before I added the bicarbonate. Watch your SG to see if it is dropping or not. According to my notes, I added two teaspoons of the potassium carbonate for a 5 gallon batch since that was before I had purchased my scale.
Calcium carbonate is what I have and it's even less soluble than potassium bicarb... however the thing is, if you mix it into something acidic (remember, you're adding a base to raise the pH, not the acidity), it will react as well as dissolve, so it takes care of the solubility problem by itself. Like adding baking soda to vinegar, I even get enough fizz to make the airlock active. I just add the dry powder after a good degassing. I add two tsp at a time for a 5-6 gal batch, then check the next day.
I decided that I may have been too gentle with the stalled must. According to some good material online, it reads like 1.3g/gal is a good amount. So, I put in an extra 1/8 tsp per gallon, which raises the total to that advisable quantity.
Then, taking Tony's lead, I got out my drill with the "weedwhacker" stirrer attached, and buzzed the thing for quite a while.
Chevette -- most of the stuff seems to have dissolved, I still have some powdery stuff on top, but it looks like it is fairly well mixed in.
I also put in about half a cup of the must into my starter, and gave it a really good shake.
And... I dipped a pH strip into my solution of StarSan. It is definitely more acidic than the other items I tested. The strip actually went red.
I'll give the must another test tomorrow... but I am not inclined to add any more bicarb to it. I will either add the starter -- or if SG and pH are still not moving, I will add more of the must to the starter.
Then, taking Tony's lead, I got out my drill with the "weedwhacker" stirrer attached, and buzzed the thing for quite a while.
Chevette -- most of the stuff seems to have dissolved, I still have some powdery stuff on top, but it looks like it is fairly well mixed in.
I also put in about half a cup of the must into my starter, and gave it a really good shake.
And... I dipped a pH strip into my solution of StarSan. It is definitely more acidic than the other items I tested. The strip actually went red.
I'll give the must another test tomorrow... but I am not inclined to add any more bicarb to it. I will either add the starter -- or if SG and pH are still not moving, I will add more of the must to the starter.
Honey is certainly a stranger substance than we give it credit for.
Part of the problem is that we just don't have test kit specific enough for it.
We mix it to the appropriate SG, yet we often forget how much acidity it provides without anything else (partly why acid additions up front are now discredited technique). Its not the usual fruit acids with traditionals, gluconic acid (gluconolactone or something like that) is weird stuff. Then we pitch the yeast and carbonic acid becomes a possible issue, which is partly why early stage aeration is recommended, as the air/O2 is good for the yeast development and at the same time provides the nucleation points for it (the carbonic acid) to attach to and come out as gaseous CO2, hence the foaming during aeration (as opposed to just a bit of bubbling from the agitation).
I suspect the K carb/bicarb isn't so much soluble but more that its broken down by acid action/reaction.
As for the dosage ? Caution is more about not affecting the flavour of the finished product. Using parts of a teaspoon measure aren't the best/most accurate obviously, but its much better than just sprinkling a hit or miss quantity and hoping for the best. Actually, I got a set of druggie scales that measure down to 1/100th of a gramme because of that (about the 10 to 15 $ US mark on eBay).
Equally, we also forget that litmus strips can be wide or narrow range and the pack I have are actually for kombucha, rather than wine. They're 2.8 to 4.6pH so the colour reaction is easier to read (I only got them because my pH meter died and I was waiting for the new one to turn up.......)
As Tony pointed out about being uncomfortable with the initial number being so low, it does seem that while those with extensive knowledge keep their brews in the apparent "sweet spot" of about 3.5pH some worry its not far enough from the danger zone.
Further digging would suggest that there's nothing actually wrong in keeping it higher - 4.0 or above, during the ferment (after all, it's still providing the acidic environment that yeast like and low enough to prevent some spoilage organisms), just that it might need dropping to the sweet spot area for the best taste and/or mouth feel afterwards - similar to adding/correcting acid in a wine after its finished its ferment.
In fact, if you think about it, such an approach may help with making ferment management less hassle - IMO. .....
Part of the problem is that we just don't have test kit specific enough for it.
We mix it to the appropriate SG, yet we often forget how much acidity it provides without anything else (partly why acid additions up front are now discredited technique). Its not the usual fruit acids with traditionals, gluconic acid (gluconolactone or something like that) is weird stuff. Then we pitch the yeast and carbonic acid becomes a possible issue, which is partly why early stage aeration is recommended, as the air/O2 is good for the yeast development and at the same time provides the nucleation points for it (the carbonic acid) to attach to and come out as gaseous CO2, hence the foaming during aeration (as opposed to just a bit of bubbling from the agitation).
I suspect the K carb/bicarb isn't so much soluble but more that its broken down by acid action/reaction.
As for the dosage ? Caution is more about not affecting the flavour of the finished product. Using parts of a teaspoon measure aren't the best/most accurate obviously, but its much better than just sprinkling a hit or miss quantity and hoping for the best. Actually, I got a set of druggie scales that measure down to 1/100th of a gramme because of that (about the 10 to 15 $ US mark on eBay).
Equally, we also forget that litmus strips can be wide or narrow range and the pack I have are actually for kombucha, rather than wine. They're 2.8 to 4.6pH so the colour reaction is easier to read (I only got them because my pH meter died and I was waiting for the new one to turn up.......)
As Tony pointed out about being uncomfortable with the initial number being so low, it does seem that while those with extensive knowledge keep their brews in the apparent "sweet spot" of about 3.5pH some worry its not far enough from the danger zone.
Further digging would suggest that there's nothing actually wrong in keeping it higher - 4.0 or above, during the ferment (after all, it's still providing the acidic environment that yeast like and low enough to prevent some spoilage organisms), just that it might need dropping to the sweet spot area for the best taste and/or mouth feel afterwards - similar to adding/correcting acid in a wine after its finished its ferment.
In fact, if you think about it, such an approach may help with making ferment management less hassle - IMO. .....
Last edited:
Also, I don't have enough experience to know if this is true for all mead fermentations, but I found that as fermentation was in the early stages, the pH kept dropping and I was fighting to keep it above a threshold I was happy with, but once I got past about 2/3 sugar break, the pH started to rise again, to the point that for a short while I started to become concerned about it climbing too high.
Assuming I've been good with my cleaning regimen, I shouldn't need to worry too much. Don't know if you're a patron (if not there's some great recipes and info!), but if you are you can see the process I went through in the patrons brew logs.
I've found that most of the things I've panicked about on my first batch, was unnecessary panic. The main thing is to know your particular yeast well, and what keeps them happy, (pH tolerance, alcohol tolerance, nutrient needs, etc), and raise/nurture them like they're your offspring for a few weeks/months. If the pH is so low that it's killed em all off, then yeasties are cheap for the most part!
So far I've found that mead is as much art as it is a technical skill, which, although going against the nature of my very being (being a very black and white technical geek!), I've found the creative process to be very liberating, not afraid to "try" stuff out based on the collective knowledge on this board, as long it's fully documented, so if things do go pear shaped, the smart guys (and gals!) on here can help out.
Assuming I've been good with my cleaning regimen, I shouldn't need to worry too much. Don't know if you're a patron (if not there's some great recipes and info!), but if you are you can see the process I went through in the patrons brew logs.
I've found that most of the things I've panicked about on my first batch, was unnecessary panic. The main thing is to know your particular yeast well, and what keeps them happy, (pH tolerance, alcohol tolerance, nutrient needs, etc), and raise/nurture them like they're your offspring for a few weeks/months. If the pH is so low that it's killed em all off, then yeasties are cheap for the most part!
So far I've found that mead is as much art as it is a technical skill, which, although going against the nature of my very being (being a very black and white technical geek!), I've found the creative process to be very liberating, not afraid to "try" stuff out based on the collective knowledge on this board, as long it's fully documented, so if things do go pear shaped, the smart guys (and gals!) on here can help out.
Spot on there matey. It didn't take me long to work out that it was worth the effort of chucking some patron money to Vicky. Worth every penny IMO.......
I ended up learning the use of the two yeasts mentioned in the late Brother Adams writings (the "Maury" yeast would appear to be the same as Lalvin D21 and the Montpellier strain, was Gervin varietal "E" which is the same as Lalvin K1-V1116). Both good for traditionals......
Tony, FB, thanks for the encouragement. I was starting to feel down from this problematic batch, but I'll figure this out. My re-starter K1V stopped bubbling after I added some of the must last night. This morning, it is starting to bubble again, just not as fabulously as before. Slow in comparison, but with every degassing shake I give it, it sends off foamy bubbles which is a good sign.
I rechecked the pH with my color-blind litmus papers. It looks more solidly a pH of 4. The meter will arrive later this week, but I may pitch the restarter tonight, as this week will be kind of busy, and I don't want the must hanging around with no ferment going on - it has been just over two weeks sitting idle.
Let's see, recent new purchases: 0.001g scale, pH meter, new litmus papers, several chems, more beery grain and hop purchases. Future purchases: corker, bottles... I've got quite the little hobby. My wallet hurts.
Ah, yes, patronage. I think it may be worth it. Expect my patron badge sometime soon.
I rechecked the pH with my color-blind litmus papers. It looks more solidly a pH of 4. The meter will arrive later this week, but I may pitch the restarter tonight, as this week will be kind of busy, and I don't want the must hanging around with no ferment going on - it has been just over two weeks sitting idle.
Let's see, recent new purchases: 0.001g scale, pH meter, new litmus papers, several chems, more beery grain and hop purchases. Future purchases: corker, bottles... I've got quite the little hobby. My wallet hurts.
Ah, yes, patronage. I think it may be worth it. Expect my patron badge sometime soon.
Yup, one thing I learned is that a yeast starter isn't like working with a full must.. you get a much smaller window of opportunity to work with ... i.e. once you have good starter activity, you've got maybe 24 - 48 hours to make the best of it.... don't hang around too long, and you'll get the best of the starter.
For my starter, I found the same as you ... 24 hours of vigorous activity and then it started to poop out a bit...
Good luck!!
Tony
Thanks --
and a question. I've seen a reputable discussion about restarters requiring 3 days of stepwise acclimations to the must (add 1/2 cup with nutrients on each day). Seems reasonable... have you tried it?
I was going to try this 3 day procedure, but real life is making demands on my time after work for the next few days. So, I am "winging it" by pitching tonight. It wasn't part of the original plan.
and a question. I've seen a reputable discussion about restarters requiring 3 days of stepwise acclimations to the must (add 1/2 cup with nutrients on each day). Seems reasonable... have you tried it?
I was going to try this 3 day procedure, but real life is making demands on my time after work for the next few days. So, I am "winging it" by pitching tonight. It wasn't part of the original plan.
A question for the peanut gallery:
My mead is about at the half way point. It was stalled there. I stirred it plenty of times in efforts to restart it, to mix in pot.bicarb, and now I am mixing it like crazy to keep the new yeast degassed.
How much is this vigorous stirring going to harm the must? Will it even harm the must at this point (its at 1.067)?
Should I stop stirring, or at least stir less vigorously?
My mead is about at the half way point. It was stalled there. I stirred it plenty of times in efforts to restart it, to mix in pot.bicarb, and now I am mixing it like crazy to keep the new yeast degassed.
How much is this vigorous stirring going to harm the must? Will it even harm the must at this point (its at 1.067)?
Should I stop stirring, or at least stir less vigorously?
I asked the same question about over oxygenation (i.e. can you oxygenate too much). The general consensus was that it's not really possible, unless perhaps if you're using pure O2 from a cylinder. A fermenting must will always make use of as much oxygen as it is able to, it's far more detrimental to not have enough oxygen available to the yeasties which could inhibit them from achieving their optimal growth. You only want to start easing off towards the end of active fermentation, when too much oxygen in the must could lead to oxidisation, etc.
That said, this is form the newbies guide....
So given that you're trying to restart it, I'm not sure if this counts as the first three days as a do-over or if you should lay off it a little... I'll defer to someone more knowledgeable, but I'd imagine you're looking to invoke a new growth phase...
Food and air is what they need.
Cheers
Tony
:headbang:
Will do!
I was starting to catch on to that, I might continue to do it until the 2/3 break.
... just saw Tony's edit. I'll do it for a couple more days then.
Beer is more sensitive to aeration... past day 3, it's not good to thrash.
Wait and see what others say though, I broke a bunch of rules (are there rules?) with mine, so I'm not a shining example of a mead making poster boy (and I still don't know how mine will turn out for at least another year) I might end up with 6 gallons o'pish as they say in Glasgow!
But if it were me, my guess is that the whole point of repitching, is to get the stalled ferment up and running again, which will require another growth phase, etc.
I'm looking around the room for someone with experience of stalled fermentation to step in and save me!
But if it were me, my guess is that the whole point of repitching, is to get the stalled ferment up and running again, which will require another growth phase, etc.
I'm looking around the room for someone with experience of stalled fermentation to step in and save me!
I've restarted two stalled ferments relatively recently... one was jalapeno wine that started at 1.080 and stopped at 1.060 for a couple years (it was in a small jug so I never checked the SG), I repitched a well-aerated acclimated starter and whipped the crap out of it for a couple days.
The other one started around 1.090 and cut out around 1.030 and had developed a funny smell, so I thought I'd splash it around and give it some nuked bread yeast, and lo and behold it started back up again, after at least a year or two being stuck there.
I suspect that aeration will only do you good at this point, especially when repitching, you are trying to rebuild the colony and that's when it needs the oxygen. I didn't check what nutrients or energizers you may have used in this batch but a little more energizer probably won't hurt either but I wouldn't go too heavy on the DAP.
The other one started around 1.090 and cut out around 1.030 and had developed a funny smell, so I thought I'd splash it around and give it some nuked bread yeast, and lo and behold it started back up again, after at least a year or two being stuck there.
I suspect that aeration will only do you good at this point, especially when repitching, you are trying to rebuild the colony and that's when it needs the oxygen. I didn't check what nutrients or energizers you may have used in this batch but a little more energizer probably won't hurt either but I wouldn't go too heavy on the DAP.
I have given it 1 tsp Fermaid K (3 gal batch) before the rack to secondary and stall. But, after the rack and stall, I gave the must 1/2 tsp F-K and 1/2 tsp DAP, with a smidgen of go-ferm. (It did not re-start, so I am guessing that the remaining yeast were dead, and any remaining food is still in the batch.)
For the new starter, I gave it 1/4 tsp go-ferm. Then after it had begun to percolate nicely, I added 1/4 tsp F-K and 1/4 tsp DAP to the starter. Since pitching, I have added no nutrients.
So, I am guessing that this new starter has a total of:
1/4 tsp go ferm (probably metabolized, by this point)
3/4 tsp (max) Fermaid K
3/4 tsp (max) DAP
to work with. Plus any dregs left over from the original 1 tsp F-K.
Should I add some more? Or do you think I have put in enough by this point? I am kind of leaning towards the latter. But, if I do have bread yeast I can boil, if you really think it needs it. I don't know how much is too much, given a re-start.
As per your experience, I will whip the dickens out of it for the next couple of days, AM and PM. I gave it a break this morning, because I was too tired to remember to do it before hauling off to work.
>bump< Advice please!
The batch is just past half way, and it has restarted! Yayyy! (Details here... tho' there are some new slightly "dark" odors that I cannot clearly define.)
I have been aerating it vigorously for the past 3 days. Should I stop aerating? Should I continue to de-gas?
The batch is just past half way, and it has restarted! Yayyy! (Details here... tho' there are some new slightly "dark" odors that I cannot clearly define.)
I have been aerating it vigorously for the past 3 days. Should I stop aerating? Should I continue to de-gas?
