Help with traditional sack recipe

[SandmanATHF]

The very first mead I ever wanted to make was a sack traditional that I would keep around for a long time, trying it through the years to see how it progressed...but then I realized how much the ingredients would cost and how difficult something like that was, so I wanted to get some practice in before trying it. But now I think I am ready, I just need some help to make sure my nutrient additions are correct. Here is my recipe for 5 Gallons which will be fermented in the basement at about 65 degrees constantly.

19 lbs of local honey ( $2.40/lb )
water to fill to 5 gallons
K1-V1116 with high gravity starter
Nutrients?

Now for my questions! I have a few.

1. For a sack mead to last a long time, does a sweeter mead last longer than a dry one? I would think a dryer one would stand the test of time better, and I prefer one, but if a semi-sweet one does, then I wouldn't mind adding some more honey to the must.

2. Since it is such a high gravity, I was thinking about putting the honey in the carboy, then adding the water right on top of it, and not mix it too well. I read this is a lazy mans way to steep feed somewhat? Would I be doing this right and would it help me push these yeasties as far as I want them to go?

3. Nutrients! I want to run my schedule by you guys first as I don't want to mess this up.

Upon creation, add about 8 G Fermaid K and then add about 5 G DAP after Lag Phase is over.
Then Aerate Everyday until 1/3 break where I will add another 5 G of each.
I also Have Fermaid O, but I'm not sure on the dosage for that, I thought I would keep adding that after the 1/3 break, as it shouldn't give too much of a chemical taste to the mead.

How does all that look? Let me know if you guys would make any changes!

 

[YogiBearMead726]

At first glance, this will probably end somewhere around 1.015-1.020. Maybe a little sweeter. As far as nutrients go, I'd add 1g of Epsom salt in the initial must. It'll help the yeast in the higher gravity.

I would say the method you describe is a way to step feed. I'd do a search with the search tool to see how others have manages their step-fed batches. Try searching for "BDC DFY" (with quotes, I think this is the right acronym). It should give you a good idea of how much of what to add.

Otherwise, sounds tasty.

 

[SandmanATHF]

searched that and nothing came up :/

What exactly do the salts do? I have never heard of adding them as a nutrient before

You think it will end sweet? I was hoping to take it dry, thats why I;m trying to set up a strict nutritional additions. I feel like I've read the tolerance for V1116 is like 18 or 20% and with that amount of honey, the calc says the 19 lbs would be about 17.5%? Am I using the calc wrong or should I not expect to push the yeast that far?

 

[akueck]

Try searching "bottom dwelling", that might get you the right hits. I think DaleP has a bunch of meads made this way. (I think it was him.) Several others have tried it to see what it can do. Interesting reading.

High sugar and high alcohol are preservatives. A sweet sack will age longer than a dry one, in general. Take the big Polish meads for example, or Port which is also sweetened and fortified. With 18% abv, I don't think a mead stopping at 1.010 will taste all that sickly sweet. In fact you might need that bit of sugar to keep it from tasting like diluted vodka.

Epsom salts are magnesium sulfate. The magnesium ions are important for yeast health. Many blended nutrients contain magnesium sulfate, you can add a little extra if you want. Calcium is also good to add if your water is low in that ion. I'd try to have at least 50 ppm Ca++ and 10 ppm Mg++ in your must. Don't go overboard on the magnesium though, if you have a lot of it left at the end it is a laxative (e.g. Milk of Magnesia).

It's pretty tricky to get your yeast up to or above 18%. Stay on top of aeration, pitch big, feed it well. Keep the temp from fluctuating, that will help as well. If it gets hot during vigorous fermentation and then cools, it could stall out on you.

 

[Medsen Fey]

Upon creation, add about 8 G Fermaid K and then add about 5 G DAP after Lag Phase is over.
Then Aerate Everyday until 1/3 break where I will add another 5 G of each.
I also Have Fermaid O, but I'm not sure on the dosage for that, I thought I would keep adding that after the 1/3 break, as it shouldn't give too much of a chemical taste to the mead.

10 gram DAP + 13 g Fermaid K gives you about 177 ppm YAN. In a routine fermentation with K1V, that would probable be plenty. In a high gravity sack strength batch, you are going to want to at least double those numbers (and probably a little more). You can spread them over the first half of fermentation. If it gets stinky toward the end, giving it a few grams of Fermaid O may help.

I'd also suggest using GoFerm to rehydrate the yeast. It does make them more alcohol tolerant.

The Epsom salts is helpful. The yeast will fall short if they lack magnesium.

I'd keep aerating it to at least the 1/2 way point.

The BDC DYF approach does work, though I can't say that I think it works any better than just mixing it all in. Using K1V, you should be able to get it dry if your gravity is 1.140 or lower. If you plan to use BDCDYF, you can estimate the starting gravity by taking one ounce (wgt) of honey and dissolving it in 1 cup of water. That will be the same gravity you will get with 1 pound in 1 gallon of water, and from that you can estimate what you will get with 19 pounds in 5 gallons by multiplying by 3.8. While K1V will probably be able to do it, Uvaferm 43 is the yeast I trust most for getting a high-gravity batch dry.

I hope you have success.

Medsen

 

[Chevette Girl]

High sugar and high alcohol are preservatives. A sweet sack will age longer than a dry one, in general. Take the big Polish meads for example, or Port which is also sweetened and fortified. With 18% abv, I don't think a mead stopping at 1.010 will taste all that sickly sweet. In fact you might need that bit of sugar to keep it from tasting like diluted vodka.

I got conflicting results when I went looking to see whether a sack mead had to be sweet which is the impression I'd gotten from what I've read so far, (and guess what's not in the glossary, Akueck? ) the newbie guide seems to think so ("Sack Mead - a sweeter Mead, with more honey") but I found a post elsewhere that indicates otherwise and also links to the BJCP definition which indicates that anything with an OG over 1.120 and ABV over 14% qualifies...

 

[Loadnabox]

Caveat to all this is I'm highly inexperienced as well. Take it with a grain of salt.

In the brewlogs, my Loaded Morning brew had an OG of 1.145 and FG 1.010 for an ABV of 17.25%. That also used K1-V1116. At that high of an ABV there's no sign of sweetness, everything is just overpowered by the alcohol. The highers alcohols have been fading, but I would guess from what I've seen so far that Akeuk is right about how your will taste ... ala not too sweet.

From the calculator, I figure that your OG will be 1.136 with an ABV of 16.23% if it stops at 1.010 like mine or 17.58% ABV if you take it completely dry.

If I remember reading correctly step feeding doesn't become a real must-do until you exceed ~1.155 SG I certainly had no issues getting my fermentation started with K1V and it stayed really strong till I racked into secondary (where it rolled over and stopped rather quickly)

P.S. I don't recommend you make my loaded morning brew... it's.... strong.

Though I must be a masochist since I fully intend to make changes and try it again very soon.

 

[SandmanATHF]

High sugar and high alcohol are preservatives. A sweet sack will age longer than a dry one, in general. Take the big Polish meads for example, or Port which is also sweetened and fortified. With 18% abv, I don't think a mead stopping at 1.010 will taste all that sickly sweet. In fact you might need that bit of sugar to keep it from tasting like diluted vodka.

This make sense, I may shoot for a higher FG now, maybe even 1.020. This make me think that it may be easier for me to ferment the 19 lbs down to dry or however far the yeast will take it, then to add 3lbs of honey to the must (like a polish mead would do kind of) until my desired sweetness/ABV. I imagine that the yeasties wont be able to ferment very much more of the honey.

The Epsom salts is helpful. The yeast will fall short if they lack magnesium.

I'd keep aerating it to at least the 1/2 way point.

How much Magnesium should I add then, a tsp at the beginning be enough?

 

[wayneb]

FWIW, "sack" is a term for high alcohol wines that was first coined back sometime in the 1500's. Generally all naturally fermented wines in that period were limited to 10 to 14% ABV max, and the term sack began to be used to describe fortified wines (usually 14 to 18% ABV) shipped from Spain and the Spanish colonies for export to England. The higher ethanol content generally preserved these "for export" wines during their arduous trip north. One commonly held belief (though not definitively documented) is that bottles of the fortified product were labeled with the Spanish words "sacar" or "sacó," which roughly translate to "remove" or "take out," suggesting for export only. One thing led to another and eventually the British began referring to these wines as "sack."

The modern meadmaking definition of sack is simply "high octane," or containing high levels of alcohol (by BJCP definition, that is anything higher than 14% ABV). It is not a sweetness descriptor, merely a term delineating relative alcohol content. So you can have dry, semi, or sweet sack strength meads.

Regarding the magnesium sulphate question, generally speaking the yeast need some, but not a lot. Doses of 1/8 to 1/4 tsp per gallon of must are usually sufficient, and at that level the yeast will use all the free magnesium, preventing the "laxative effect" that akueck mentioned earlier.

 

[YogiBearMead726]

You think it will end sweet? I was hoping to take it dry, thats why I;m trying to set up a strict nutritional additions. I feel like I've read the tolerance for V1116 is like 18 or 20% and with that amount of honey, the calc says the 19 lbs would be about 17.5%? Am I using the calc wrong or should I not expect to push the yeast that far?

Hmm...I must have been thinking of something else. I had forgotten K1V's tolerance. I will say, it does take quite a lot of care (ie nutrients, aeration, temperature management) to get something up to 18% (as others have mentioned). I don't think I've personally gotten K1V past 17% before, which is perhaps where my idea that this might not finish dry arose from. But, YMMV.

As for Epsom salts, others have done a good job about them, and Wayne's amount additions work out to ~1g.

 

[SandmanATHF]

I forgot about Tannin!

Maybe 3 tsp? Maybe even more? I know that is a lot, but once i stir that in, I'll def keep my hands off this carboy for awhile I'm sure

 

[Medsen Fey]

Why not wait and see if it needs it? High alcohol accentuates tannin so a little may go a long way.

 

[fong song]

Would magnesium oxide and magnesium gluconate work as well? I have these forms in supplement tablets.

 

[Medsen Fey]

They should work as a source of Mg. I can't say if any particular form is better than another - I've not seen any data on that question.

 

[fong song]

Ok, good to know, thankyou