Honey Question
- Thread starter Luko
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I have used it in a melomel, but I was using almost 5 lbs of fruit/gallon. It does not have much flavor by itself, but if you are planning a super fruity mel, your may not notice that the honey is of lower quality.
I was at Sam's Club recently and their brand of honey is almost $12 for 5 pounds, about $2.40/lb. If you look at their honey label, its sources are from all over the world, and most likely highly processed. It probably would be okay for a melomel or metheglin. But is "okay" really okay with you? If you're planning a traditional mead, you would probably be better off paying only slightly more for a local varietal (single source) honey.
Hmm...I have used honey from Walmart, which I am sure is the same honey sold at Sams. No where on the label does it say where the honey is from. I would be interested to see what label you are reading that shows it is honey from all over the world? I am not doubting your claim, I just can not see it on any of the containers I read.
From what I can tell, the honey from walmart is pure, unpasturized honey. Short of being filtered to remove particulates, I do not think this honey has been processed in anyway. By saying "most likely" you are assuming it is processed but have no proof. You are simply assuming because it is a large chain store brand so they must process it.
While I am no honey connissuer, the Walmart honey tastes just as good as any other clover honey. And what exactly do you mean by "lower quality"? Are the bees that make Walmart/Sam's honey more lazy then the other bees so they do not put as much effort into making their honey? Do they make it out of cheaper flowers or collect pollen from the 'bad' side of the tracks? Honey is Honey. There are varying tastes depending on where the bees get their nectar, but unless Walmart is cutting their honey with syrup or sugar water, there is no such thing as lower quality honey.
So, I guess of your expert taste buds can tell the difference between your local clover honey and Walmart/Sam's branded clover honey, then by all means go for what you like better. However, for testing out new mead recipies and small experimental batches, I think normal store bought honey is fine. As long as it is pure and unpasturized.
From what I can tell, the honey from walmart is pure, unpasturized honey. Short of being filtered to remove particulates, I do not think this honey has been processed in anyway. By saying "most likely" you are assuming it is processed but have no proof. You are simply assuming because it is a large chain store brand so they must process it.
While I am no honey connissuer, the Walmart honey tastes just as good as any other clover honey. And what exactly do you mean by "lower quality"? Are the bees that make Walmart/Sam's honey more lazy then the other bees so they do not put as much effort into making their honey? Do they make it out of cheaper flowers or collect pollen from the 'bad' side of the tracks? Honey is Honey. There are varying tastes depending on where the bees get their nectar, but unless Walmart is cutting their honey with syrup or sugar water, there is no such thing as lower quality honey.
So, I guess of your expert taste buds can tell the difference between your local clover honey and Walmart/Sam's branded clover honey, then by all means go for what you like better. However, for testing out new mead recipies and small experimental batches, I think normal store bought honey is fine. As long as it is pure and unpasturized.
Although for small experimental batches, you are exactly correct (the source of the honey is a secondary consideration), there definitely IS a difference between heat-processed honey and that which has not been heated. Whenever the source location of commercial honey is not explicitly listed on the container it is a safe bet to assume it has come from multiple sources (often imported from countries with far fewer quality controls than here). Also whenever there are no claims as to "raw" or "unprocessed" on the label, you can assume that the honey has been heated above 125F to facilitate filtration. Filtered honey is clearer in the jar, and that makes it more attractive to the general uninformed consumer. But the raw, untreated honey that I prefer for mead has much more inherent aromatic and flavor components - and truly raw clover would knock your socks off with clover blossom aroma and taste.
I'll agree that there's many situations for cheap honey, I use it all the time myself, but even when they say it's unpasteurized I question whether that really means what it says, or if they keep the temp down a degree to avoid some legal definition and get to label it how they want.
And you are correct, assuming it hasn't been pasteurized or cut with something, honey is still honey, might not be amazing, but certainly will still be good.
Now, I have not tried Walmart's honey. Not a fan of them for my own reasons, not going to have that discussion here! But, when I buy cheap honey from other stores, it is indeed clear that it has been heat-processed, despite saying that it is non-pasturized. I have in no way shape or form a trained or overly sensitive palate, but when I compare it to raw honey that I know isn't heat-processed I can immediately smell the difference (taste seems to be less of a concern, but still somewhat flatter), regardless of the varietal/non-varietal.
That's not me saying don't use cheap honey, just my 2 cents that what the label says isn't always true, there are a lot of sneaky ways to get around labeling laws (for example: "natural flavour" as an ingredient actually means "artificial flavour" but there's some technicality that gets them off the hook. Which sucks for companies that list that meaning that there is simply no added flavouring, makes things very unclear).
But I agree not to necessarily judge the honey by it's cheapness, one should buy some of several kinds and compare for themselves.
EDIT: Darn, it was your turn to beat me Wayne!
And you are correct, assuming it hasn't been pasteurized or cut with something, honey is still honey, might not be amazing, but certainly will still be good.
Now, I have not tried Walmart's honey. Not a fan of them for my own reasons, not going to have that discussion here! But, when I buy cheap honey from other stores, it is indeed clear that it has been heat-processed, despite saying that it is non-pasturized. I have in no way shape or form a trained or overly sensitive palate, but when I compare it to raw honey that I know isn't heat-processed I can immediately smell the difference (taste seems to be less of a concern, but still somewhat flatter), regardless of the varietal/non-varietal.
That's not me saying don't use cheap honey, just my 2 cents that what the label says isn't always true, there are a lot of sneaky ways to get around labeling laws (for example: "natural flavour" as an ingredient actually means "artificial flavour" but there's some technicality that gets them off the hook. Which sucks for companies that list that meaning that there is simply no added flavouring, makes things very unclear).
But I agree not to necessarily judge the honey by it's cheapness, one should buy some of several kinds and compare for themselves.
EDIT: Darn, it was your turn to beat me Wayne!
My first couple meads were made with Costco honey and I was happy with them. I would never talk anyone out of making a mead with it and I assume Sam's is the same. I currently buy my honey from an apiary and can tell that the better the honey, the better the mead. Another benifit of buying form an apiary is the discount of buying in bulk. My 60lbs buckets are cheaper per lbs than Costco's 5lbs containers.
I see nothing wrong with using the Sam's honey if that's all you currently have access to, but it's worth searching for a local bee keeper for one of your future batches (or your current one if you aren't in a rush).
I see nothing wrong with using the Sam's honey if that's all you currently have access to, but it's worth searching for a local bee keeper for one of your future batches (or your current one if you aren't in a rush).
Better honey = Better Mead.
With that said there are plenty of times I have used Costco honey for batches that were going to be completely dominated by fruit and other ingredients.
However, the honey in the large chains is almost invariably going to have been heated and filtered so that it is nice and clear for the "discriminating consumer". What's more, if the label doesn't say product of USA, then it is made with imports from who-knows-where. Since China is a big exporter of honey (cut with high fructose corn syrup), unscrupulous producers in other countries may try to slip in Chinese honey to increase their profit margins. If you have faith in the Waltons to make sure your honey is pure, then you are okay.
With that said there are plenty of times I have used Costco honey for batches that were going to be completely dominated by fruit and other ingredients.
However, the honey in the large chains is almost invariably going to have been heated and filtered so that it is nice and clear for the "discriminating consumer". What's more, if the label doesn't say product of USA, then it is made with imports from who-knows-where. Since China is a big exporter of honey (cut with high fructose corn syrup), unscrupulous producers in other countries may try to slip in Chinese honey to increase their profit margins. If you have faith in the Waltons to make sure your honey is pure, then you are okay.
We need to return to things Made In The USA..
I am neither preaching nor disrespecting anyone's decisions for their purchases.
DO business with a local farmer, and Apiarists... That makes a difference in your community! Without local support the small business person is in trouble and so are We!
Remember Save The Bee's......
I am neither preaching nor disrespecting anyone's decisions for their purchases.
DO business with a local farmer, and Apiarists... That makes a difference in your community! Without local support the small business person is in trouble and so are We!
Remember Save The Bee's......
Imho
Example from Dutch Gold Honey website (mass producer): Because the filtration process used by Dutch Gold Honey generally removes most of the pollen, allergic reactions stemming from the consumption of honey are very uncommon. BTW: Their buckwheat honey complemented my cyser very well. I'm not opposed to using it in many cases.
Example from Virginia Brand e-mail inquire (Sam's Club previous supplier before Bakers & Chefs):Our honey is not pasteurized. It is heated just a minimal amount in order to facilitate it flowing throw our tubing. We also do filter large partials out, but not the pollens and beneficial qualities.
Please don’t construe my post as a personal attack. It is merely my opinion and is based on my experiences and my research on the products.
I wouldn't be so sure it's the same honey. The Wal-Mart empire has many suppliers. You have no way of knowing if the supplier that packages Wal-Mart honey (small quantities) is he same as the one that packages the Sam's Club (5 pounds). After all, Wal-Mart claims "Always the Low Price", not necessarily always the same source. If you are interested in seeing the label that I was reading, just go to your local Sam's Club and read it. Argentina is listed as one of the several countries from which they receive honey. Not necessarily a bad thing, but I like many here, prefer a varietal honey for traditional meads. Just personal preference of course, which was solicited in the original post.
Again, one can't be so sure that it is unpastureized or heavily processed to remove pollens. We have no way of knowing and that's my point. With local honey, you can usually talk to the beekeeper to see how it's processed. I don't assume Sam's Club processes anything, they merely purchase it for resale. I assume that because it's Wal-mart, they want to appeal to the masses.
Example from Dutch Gold Honey website (mass producer): Because the filtration process used by Dutch Gold Honey generally removes most of the pollen, allergic reactions stemming from the consumption of honey are very uncommon. BTW: Their buckwheat honey complemented my cyser very well. I'm not opposed to using it in many cases.
Example from Virginia Brand e-mail inquire (Sam's Club previous supplier before Bakers & Chefs):Our honey is not pasteurized. It is heated just a minimal amount in order to facilitate it flowing throw our tubing. We also do filter large partials out, but not the pollens and beneficial qualities.
Tastes as good? Again, it is a matter of opinion, as you can see from many of the replies. As for the work ethic of the bees of the clover quality, again, no way of knowing. I did not mean to imply that your mead was not "fine". I merely stated that for traditional mead, one might wish to pay a few cents more (or in many cases significantly less), for honey where they "know what they are getting".
Please don’t construe my post as a personal attack. It is merely my opinion and is based on my experiences and my research on the products.
I am a complete newbee and did not mean to step on anyone's toes. My sincerest apoligies if I did. I know many people hate Walmart/Sams because it is a big evil corporation that exploits it's employees and forces China down our throats. Not even going to get into that argument here. This is not the forum for it.
I do realize that most store bought honey will generally be a blend of honey from many different sources. However, if it is from another country, it is required by law to have the country of origin listed on it. If it is from multiple countries, they are required to list all the countries it may be from. Thus why all imported items have a Made In stamped or labled somewhere on it. So, I believe it is safe to assume that this honey, while from multiple apiaries, should all be from US sources.
I also believe their claims about no pasturizing it. Pasturization requires heating to a specific tempurature for a specific amount of time. It is a very scientifc method that requires precise numbers. Mearly heating the honey a little to help it flow through the filters is not pasturization in any form. I am sure many honey farmers do that and still call their honey raw and unpasturized. It is not merely legal word rangling.
I do realize that most store bought honey will generally be a blend of honey from many different sources. However, if it is from another country, it is required by law to have the country of origin listed on it. If it is from multiple countries, they are required to list all the countries it may be from. Thus why all imported items have a Made In stamped or labled somewhere on it. So, I believe it is safe to assume that this honey, while from multiple apiaries, should all be from US sources.
I also believe their claims about no pasturizing it. Pasturization requires heating to a specific tempurature for a specific amount of time. It is a very scientifc method that requires precise numbers. Mearly heating the honey a little to help it flow through the filters is not pasturization in any form. I am sure many honey farmers do that and still call their honey raw and unpasturized. It is not merely legal word rangling.
Strictly speaking, that isn't quite true. The law now requires any honey sold with USDA label markings (for example, "USDA Grade A") to have full country of origin notifications on the label, but not if the honey is ungraded. There is a lot of ungraded commercial honey in the marketplace, and you'll find that none of it has any hint of country of origin marked on the packaging.
It sounds like I'm splitting hairs (or honeycombs) here, but I really do take this particular point very seriously, as lots of Chinese "honey" (which was actually honey cut with corn syrup and other less desirable ingredients) made it to the US market in recent years, and that was not the kind of thing that I want to use in my meads. Not especially with the more recent revelations of Chinese baby formula containing the plastic melamine! That stuff is toxic!!
So, I tend to take my honey sourcing information very seriously, and I want to make sure that there is no room for ambiguity in that source data.
From what I understand it is common for shadier honey distributers from various countries to buy Chinese "honey" (probably not entirely...) and resell it under the label that it came from their own country.
It occurs to me that maybe I should quantify my accusation that the Sam's club honey is of "lower quality". I agree with what many have said that there are definitely uses for this honey. I was only implying that I prefer the taste and smell of honey that has never been heated and is only coarsely filtered.
I too have used some of the cheaper store brand honeys in super fruity mels, as I stated initially. I just prefer to use the highest quality of ingredients that I can afford.
I in no way have expert taste buds; just ask my wife. I have however lined up 20 different honeys to taste and smell the differences between each one. I think that the difference between the clover honey I got locally and the Sam's honey is quite pronounced.
So the point of all of this is use what you like best, but try as many different honeys as you can so that you know what you like.
So in short I disagree with "Honey is Honey"
I too have used some of the cheaper store brand honeys in super fruity mels, as I stated initially. I just prefer to use the highest quality of ingredients that I can afford.
I in no way have expert taste buds; just ask my wife. I have however lined up 20 different honeys to taste and smell the differences between each one. I think that the difference between the clover honey I got locally and the Sam's honey is quite pronounced.
So the point of all of this is use what you like best, but try as many different honeys as you can so that you know what you like.
So in short I disagree with "Honey is Honey"
I've been biting my tongue on this one. But have to chime in ...
I have used CostCo SueBee honey a few times. It is not a strong flavor or aroma. Makes a very cheap simple mead. It won't impress anyone, but it is very easy to drink.
CostCo changed brands last week! I forget the new name, but it was from Michigan or Pennsylvania I think.
SueBee got a bad reputation a few years ago. Seems someone found a pallet from China somehow related to them somewhere. Do a google search if you want to know more.
Is that bad or good? I have mixed feelings. As long as it is not filler made from corn sugar and "honey flavored", I am OK with it! Of course the filler rumors abound also. Not always substantiated, but they abound.
Lot's of rumor and speculation about imported honey. I guess in the end, we get what we pay for. If it tastes good in the end, and is cheap, I say go for it. If you want to have more honey flavor and aroma in your mead, then buy honey that will impart that for you.
I have used CostCo SueBee honey a few times. It is not a strong flavor or aroma. Makes a very cheap simple mead. It won't impress anyone, but it is very easy to drink.
CostCo changed brands last week! I forget the new name, but it was from Michigan or Pennsylvania I think.
SueBee got a bad reputation a few years ago. Seems someone found a pallet from China somehow related to them somewhere. Do a google search if you want to know more.
Is that bad or good? I have mixed feelings. As long as it is not filler made from corn sugar and "honey flavored", I am OK with it! Of course the filler rumors abound also. Not always substantiated, but they abound.
Lot's of rumor and speculation about imported honey. I guess in the end, we get what we pay for. If it tastes good in the end, and is cheap, I say go for it. If you want to have more honey flavor and aroma in your mead, then buy honey that will impart that for you.
I yield. After doing some further digging, I have found reports of some farmers, even here in the US, that feed their bees sugar water vs letting them go find nectar. While the end product will look and even taste similar, it does not contain the pollens and other stuff that makes honey, honey. While it is not widespread as a common practice in the US. MANY foriegn apiaries practice this for honey export.
While no one can seem to confirm or deny claims about store bought honey, more precisely, walmart/sams honey, it is still something to take into account when purchasing it.
While no one can seem to confirm or deny claims about store bought honey, more precisely, walmart/sams honey, it is still something to take into account when purchasing it.
If you live in the north and don't ship your bees to places where they can find flowers in the winter ... and ... you take their honey they stored up ... you MUST feed them something! It is pretty normal around here to feed them sugar (any kind) at the end of the season so they can replenish their stores and have food for themselves during the winter. I know a keeper who puts out stale halloween candy for the bees to lick on late in the fall. 
Does that honey end up sold later? I can't say. But I doubt much of it makes it into what they may sell the next year. Not saying none do it. Just saying there is a good reason for feeding bees sugar instead of only flower nectar!
Does that honey end up sold later? I can't say. But I doubt much of it makes it into what they may sell the next year. Not saying none do it. Just saying there is a good reason for feeding bees sugar instead of only flower nectar!
I know a keeper who puts out stale halloween candy for the bees to lick on late in the fall.
Dangit, now I want bees so I can try that, see what difference it makes in the honey depending on what candy you feed them! Candycane honey??
Also a beekeeper here so a few facts:
1) Currently there is an issue going on with honey from China (reportedly of poor quality, why I do not know) that is being routed into the U.S. using Canada as the back door. It has been going on for some time and is currently being watched for by the proper authorities. Was an article in The American Bee Journal, one of the oldest and most respected Apiarist journals, just last month.
2) When nectar flow is low, you can feed a bee just about any source of sweet and they will take it. It is normal to feed bees various concentrations of sugar and water or corn syrup in the very early spring and later fall. It is common to even add medicines and other holistic essential oils for the bees health.
3) it is uncommon for bees to take any type of man-made sweet when nectar is flowing, they prefer natural sources.
4) a good beekeeper NEVER has a super (the box you collect your portion of honey from) on the hive when he is "feeding" the bees. All that feed is supposed to go into the brood box for their consumption. It is illegal to sell "honey" from "fed" bees (not technically called honey at that point - honey is only from natural sources.)
5) can you argue that there can be cross contamination with all this feeding and etc - of course, but it is considered insignificant even by the FDA and is common practice around the world.
And there are other facts but I can only count to 5, 10 with help.
1) Currently there is an issue going on with honey from China (reportedly of poor quality, why I do not know) that is being routed into the U.S. using Canada as the back door. It has been going on for some time and is currently being watched for by the proper authorities. Was an article in The American Bee Journal, one of the oldest and most respected Apiarist journals, just last month.
2) When nectar flow is low, you can feed a bee just about any source of sweet and they will take it. It is normal to feed bees various concentrations of sugar and water or corn syrup in the very early spring and later fall. It is common to even add medicines and other holistic essential oils for the bees health.
3) it is uncommon for bees to take any type of man-made sweet when nectar is flowing, they prefer natural sources.
4) a good beekeeper NEVER has a super (the box you collect your portion of honey from) on the hive when he is "feeding" the bees. All that feed is supposed to go into the brood box for their consumption. It is illegal to sell "honey" from "fed" bees (not technically called honey at that point - honey is only from natural sources.)
5) can you argue that there can be cross contamination with all this feeding and etc - of course, but it is considered insignificant even by the FDA and is common practice around the world.
And there are other facts but I can only count to 5, 10 with help.
I usually use Sam's Club honey for most my batches so far (mostly 1g experimental batches, it's my first year) and the honey I've gotten from our Sam's lists the honey as from Virginia.
