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Mechanical Engineer… Work in a test group for a Helicopter Manufacturer. I design test equipment/machines...devices of doom and destruction.
This explains everything, Al. You and Aaron both have the same scientific brain and it shows in everything you do/want to do--you just can't help but tinker with the mead ingredients/procedures, and since you're well-trained, you can't help but do it scientifically.
Lotta brainiacs on this site.
What am I doing here????
Of to the Monterey Bay Aquarium!
(DARPA?)
Lotta brainiacs on this site.
What am I doing here????
Of to the Monterey Bay Aquarium!
(DARPA?)
It's well-known that alcohol fuels the PhD process, and that PhD students are poor. It's a natural fit, and I started 6 months into grad school after being introduced to the idea in the first month at a MSE grad student homebrew party. At the time, about 15% of the department brewed. I think the number is larger now.
Ahhhhh Man! I love the Monterey Bay Aquarium....nothing like a walk up Canery Row.................
I was just there last week (Cannery Row and the Aquarium). Man, that place has sure changed since my first time out there in the early 80's. And not for the better. It has a certain "Disney-esque" quality about it, and far too many people, these days IMHO.
That's why I don't go very often anymore, even though I get tickets to the MBA for free. We got there at opening, and were done by the time the crowds got really bad. I was there on Friday. 
So...can this honey test be pulled off, or no?
(see how diligently I try to get back on topic?!)
So...can this honey test be pulled off, or no?
(see how diligently I try to get back on topic?!
)
I haven't been able to get Florida Blackberry honey yet. I'm still trying. I'm also checking Georgia. When we get a source of honey, I'd really like to see this tested.
This is part of a answer I sent to a request for Blackberry Honey from different parts of the country. If I am misunderstanding the concept of terroir, please let me know!
From a beekeepers perspective, here is my take (I'll publish this on the thread as well):
Honey from the exact same location and collected at the same time of year, year after year, can have wildly fluctuating flavors. Let me give two examples:
1. Wildflower, from my own apiary, when I was closer to Baltimore. The main honey plants were Black Locust, which produces a light honey with a bit of harsh aftertaste, and Tulip Poplar, which produces a dark, strong tasting honey. They bloom one after the other. Usually, the lighter color wins out. However, if it rains during the Black Locust bloom, you will definitely have a darker color - and stronger tasting - honey.
2. Snowberry, from Oregon - In good years, it produces a light, sweet honey, similar to butterscotch. In a drought, the nectar gets concentrated, and the result is a dark, caramel-molasses type honey.
What can be derived from this is, all things being equal, and global warming not being a concern, honey collected from the exact same place under the exact same environmental conditions will be exactly the same every year. This does not occur in practice because the weather is too much of an unknown. It controls not just the quality of the flower and the nectar, but the bee's ability to collect it as well.
Does that mean you can tell what apiary and what year the honey came from? Maybe, but probably not. In the case of a wildflower, there are simply too many variations. How are you to know it came from my apiary, and not my neighbors? Or someone in a similar set of environmental conditions. Example: We sell our Wildflower Honey to people looking for "local honey" for allergies. The botanical makeup in this geographical region is similar from Northern Virginia to Southern Pennsylvania. You know us well enough to know that we do not push a sale, but when people come calling looking for honey that is "within 20 miles of where I live, because that is what my doctor told me to buy", they usually walk away with what we have.
In the case of a single floral source honey - maybe. If you have a good enough tongue, are familiar with a lot of apiaries, are certain that the honey is not blended, and are certain that you are not looking at a conglomeration of honey from a lot of local sites. For example - a beekeeper may pollinate 2-6 different blueberry fields, pull all the honey of, bring it back to his extraction site, and extract it into one large pot. The "large pot" may even be a conglomeration of several beekeepers, operating from several fields.
I'm assuming that you are asking for Florida Blackberry to compare against Oregon Blackberry? Again, keep in mind, there are different variations of berries, fruits, etc. Using Orange Blossom as an example - this includes everything from navals and juice oranges to tangerines and lemons and limes. One beekeeper may pollinate several groves, toss the honey into the same pot, and call in Orange Blossom. I have tasted a remarkable difference in Orange Blossom Honey between California and Florida. By the same token, I have heard California beekeepers comment that Orange Blossom Honey tastes different from different parts of California, and they attribute it to the types of citrus grown.
The concept of terroir is an interesting question, though. I do not think I can help you with the honey on this one, sad to say. The beekeepers I deal with are simply too large. You would need a small beekeeper, preferably one who is pollinating his own farm. You would need to know exactly what the bees where pollinating that year, since rain can vary the plants the bees attend. Quite an undertaking, to control so many aspects.
As for Blackberry Honey in Florida - I am unaware of any fields of blackberries large enough in Florida to produce single floral source Blackberry Honey. Your better bet would be with Orange Blossom (Florida, California and Texas), Blueberry (Maine and New Jersey), Buckwheat (New York and Midwest), or Fireweed (Oregon and Alaska).
And on the topic of Buckwheat - it is the belief among the beekeepers that the variations found in Buckwheat Honey are the results of GM crops vs more "natural" crops. The closer the seed is to the original buckwheat, the darker, thicker, and stronger the honey becomes.
Thinking about it, a number of bee clubs have scholarship money they hand out, you just need to ask. Central Maryland Beekeepers Association, Maryland State Beekeepers Association, USDA Beekeeping lab in Beltsville, MD are but a few. This would be a good project to approach them with a proposal. With the USDA, you might be able to find a college intern who would be willing to help in exchange for publication rights. If you can coordinate a couple sets of beekeepers across the US, you could easily develop a 2-5 year trial, not including brewing and drinking time.
Hope this gives you something to think on. I'll try to post this to GotMead tonight.
Lori Titus
The Bee Folks
From a beekeepers perspective, here is my take (I'll publish this on the thread as well):
Honey from the exact same location and collected at the same time of year, year after year, can have wildly fluctuating flavors. Let me give two examples:
1. Wildflower, from my own apiary, when I was closer to Baltimore. The main honey plants were Black Locust, which produces a light honey with a bit of harsh aftertaste, and Tulip Poplar, which produces a dark, strong tasting honey. They bloom one after the other. Usually, the lighter color wins out. However, if it rains during the Black Locust bloom, you will definitely have a darker color - and stronger tasting - honey.
2. Snowberry, from Oregon - In good years, it produces a light, sweet honey, similar to butterscotch. In a drought, the nectar gets concentrated, and the result is a dark, caramel-molasses type honey.
What can be derived from this is, all things being equal, and global warming not being a concern, honey collected from the exact same place under the exact same environmental conditions will be exactly the same every year. This does not occur in practice because the weather is too much of an unknown. It controls not just the quality of the flower and the nectar, but the bee's ability to collect it as well.
Does that mean you can tell what apiary and what year the honey came from? Maybe, but probably not. In the case of a wildflower, there are simply too many variations. How are you to know it came from my apiary, and not my neighbors? Or someone in a similar set of environmental conditions. Example: We sell our Wildflower Honey to people looking for "local honey" for allergies. The botanical makeup in this geographical region is similar from Northern Virginia to Southern Pennsylvania. You know us well enough to know that we do not push a sale, but when people come calling looking for honey that is "within 20 miles of where I live, because that is what my doctor told me to buy", they usually walk away with what we have.
In the case of a single floral source honey - maybe. If you have a good enough tongue, are familiar with a lot of apiaries, are certain that the honey is not blended, and are certain that you are not looking at a conglomeration of honey from a lot of local sites. For example - a beekeeper may pollinate 2-6 different blueberry fields, pull all the honey of, bring it back to his extraction site, and extract it into one large pot. The "large pot" may even be a conglomeration of several beekeepers, operating from several fields.
I'm assuming that you are asking for Florida Blackberry to compare against Oregon Blackberry? Again, keep in mind, there are different variations of berries, fruits, etc. Using Orange Blossom as an example - this includes everything from navals and juice oranges to tangerines and lemons and limes. One beekeeper may pollinate several groves, toss the honey into the same pot, and call in Orange Blossom. I have tasted a remarkable difference in Orange Blossom Honey between California and Florida. By the same token, I have heard California beekeepers comment that Orange Blossom Honey tastes different from different parts of California, and they attribute it to the types of citrus grown.
The concept of terroir is an interesting question, though. I do not think I can help you with the honey on this one, sad to say. The beekeepers I deal with are simply too large. You would need a small beekeeper, preferably one who is pollinating his own farm. You would need to know exactly what the bees where pollinating that year, since rain can vary the plants the bees attend. Quite an undertaking, to control so many aspects.
As for Blackberry Honey in Florida - I am unaware of any fields of blackberries large enough in Florida to produce single floral source Blackberry Honey. Your better bet would be with Orange Blossom (Florida, California and Texas), Blueberry (Maine and New Jersey), Buckwheat (New York and Midwest), or Fireweed (Oregon and Alaska).
And on the topic of Buckwheat - it is the belief among the beekeepers that the variations found in Buckwheat Honey are the results of GM crops vs more "natural" crops. The closer the seed is to the original buckwheat, the darker, thicker, and stronger the honey becomes.
Thinking about it, a number of bee clubs have scholarship money they hand out, you just need to ask. Central Maryland Beekeepers Association, Maryland State Beekeepers Association, USDA Beekeeping lab in Beltsville, MD are but a few. This would be a good project to approach them with a proposal. With the USDA, you might be able to find a college intern who would be willing to help in exchange for publication rights. If you can coordinate a couple sets of beekeepers across the US, you could easily develop a 2-5 year trial, not including brewing and drinking time.
Hope this gives you something to think on. I'll try to post this to GotMead tonight.
Lori Titus
The Bee Folks
Lori, that was an excellent description of why the variance in honey from the same locale from year to year, or even within one season, might have far more influence on the flavor profile of honeys (and the meads made from them) than would be seen in taste comparisons of honeys from different locations.
That said, I still find that east coast (Florida) and west coast (So Cal) orange blossom honeys do seem to me, to be consistently different from one another from year to year. I find the west coast OB to be more "floral," and that from the east coast to be slightly less overpowering in aroma but a slight bit more "fruity," consistently no matter what year the harvest has been from. Then there's the obvious differences between eastern and western buckwheat honeys. So I still think that a terroir experiment such as the one proposed here might have merit - at least when using monofloral honeys produced from large expanses of the same, or similar, plants.
I like your suggestion of getting beekeeper-based research sponsored - that could be just the incentive to actually make something like our proposed experiment a reality.
That said, I still find that east coast (Florida) and west coast (So Cal) orange blossom honeys do seem to me, to be consistently different from one another from year to year. I find the west coast OB to be more "floral," and that from the east coast to be slightly less overpowering in aroma but a slight bit more "fruity," consistently no matter what year the harvest has been from. Then there's the obvious differences between eastern and western buckwheat honeys. So I still think that a terroir experiment such as the one proposed here might have merit - at least when using monofloral honeys produced from large expanses of the same, or similar, plants.
I like your suggestion of getting beekeeper-based research sponsored - that could be just the incentive to actually make something like our proposed experiment a reality.
Lori, thanks for the great thoughts. You've hit the question squarely. First, can you identify consistently mead made from different localities from year to year, and if so, down to what range can you do it? State? Region? County? Apiary?
I love the idea of getting some funding for a mead research project. That would be.......sweet?
Medsen
A
andrewschwab
Guest
Guest
I agree totally, the honey is never exactly the same from year to year. Cause the growing conditions are always different. (much like vintage) But I have been doing it long enough in this one area to be able to tell what the honey will be like before I even pull it.
Also the way the honey is handled makes a difference. I don't total agree with the way Ken suggested to handle honey... I see no reason to freeze it. Keep it in a cool location, yes. When it granulates never, ever,ever go above 105 degrees. It may take a long time for some honey to come back around, BUT it does not effect flavour, or aroma that way. Besides good things to those who wait.
Well this was not a great honey year for my area, but I will set some aside in case this gets off the ground floor. Would like to see it happen myself. Don't care what honey is choosen, it won't hurt my feelings if you don't use blackberry.
Oh ya, there are different blackberry plants, my honey comes from the blackberry that grows everwhere wild. Don't know what kind it is
But it makes good blackberry port and it is free and everywhere.
Also the way the honey is handled makes a difference. I don't total agree with the way Ken suggested to handle honey... I see no reason to freeze it. Keep it in a cool location, yes. When it granulates never, ever,ever go above 105 degrees. It may take a long time for some honey to come back around, BUT it does not effect flavour, or aroma that way. Besides good things to those who wait.
Well this was not a great honey year for my area, but I will set some aside in case this gets off the ground floor. Would like to see it happen myself. Don't care what honey is choosen, it won't hurt my feelings if you don't use blackberry.
Oh ya, there are different blackberry plants, my honey comes from the blackberry that grows everwhere wild. Don't know what kind it is
But it makes good blackberry port and it is free and everywhere.
