Hydrometer questions

[Oskaar]

LOL, I have some that are older than many of the posters here on Got Mead? LOL

I'll have to see if I can make time to photo one or two of them.

Cheers,

Oskaar

 

[Dan McFeeley]

Sorry, I should have added that hydrometer readings in meadmaking are always going to be off, simply by virtue of the fact of using honey over grape must.

You can get by with assuming that the scales on the hydrometer, which are calculated according to sugar solutions, work closely with grape must since approximately 94% or more of the solids in grape must are fementable sugars. Honey is different in that the solids are less than 87% or so (I'm being lazy and going by memory rather than looking up the figures) fermentable sugars. That means that calculations from hydrometer readings for items like alcohol content won't be quite accurate, no matter how good your hydrometer is.

More specifically, the scales on hydrometers are calculated for sugar solutions, which are 100% fermentable. Grape must is pretty close, honey must is not quite as close.

 

[AsharaLyn]

I'm not that worried about accurate % alcohol calculations, or any of that kind of thing. I figure as long as it's got some and not too much, it's good enough . My normal libation of choice when I'm drinking at events is port, so mead & cyser are going to be a little lighter in the alcohol category (but not much). I'm actually more worried about matching or coming close to the recipe's listed FG, so that it won't end up so sweet that no one else will drink any. Since this is my first real attempt at a cyser (or really anything else, since my First Mead is happily sitting in its carboy, where it will stay for quite a while), I just don't know what is 'sweet' and 'semi-sweet', etc, according to the hydrometer. My taste buds seem to have a significant shift in that department! I taste things and think they're great, and my husband says, "Damn, that's really sweet."

 

[Dan McFeeley]

LOL, I have some that are older than many of the posters here on Got Mead? LOL

I'll have to see if I can make time to photo one or two of them.

I think you've said elsewhere that the winemaking tradition in your family line, ethnic and so on, goes back 2,000 years? Probably longer?

If these are hydometer passed on from generation to generation, we're talking about some pretty old stuff! ;D ;D ;D

I believe Sir Digby talks about using eggs as a hydrometer? (I have a really great article on the accuracy of eggs as hydrometers during Medieval times) What were they using before then? ;D ;D ;D

 

[Dan McFeeley]

I'm not that worried about accurate % alcohol calculations, or any of that kind of thing. I figure as long as it's got some and not too much, it's good enough . My normal libation of choice when I'm drinking at events is port, so mead & cyser are going to be a little lighter in the alcohol category (but not much). I'm actually more worried about matching or coming close to the recipe's listed FG, so that it won't end up so sweet that no one else will drink any. Since this is my first real attempt at a cyser (or really anything else, since my First Mead is happily sitting in its carboy, where it will stay for quite a while), I just don't know what is 'sweet' and 'semi-sweet', etc, according to the hydrometer. My taste buds seem to have a significant shift in that department! I taste things and think they're great, and my husband says, "Damn, that's really sweet."

That's a really good question, something that goes beyond hydrometer readings for final gravity.

What we're talking about here is perceived sweetness, which can come down to a matter of individual tastes.

I can look through some old stuff and give you a range, but in the meantime a good place to look is judging categories for mead. They'll tell you right off what is considered "dry," "semi-sweet," and "sweet."

I like Oscaar's definition of "nornal" as a moving target. That's very accurate! "Normal" isn't a figure, it's a variable range. That certainly applies to perceived sweetness according to final gravity readings.

Are you keeping track of your FG and making comparisons to you and your husband's perception of "sweet"?

 

[AsharaLyn]

*snip*

I can look through some old stuff and give you a range, but in the meantime a good place to look is judging categories for mead. They'll tell you right off what is considered "dry," "semi-sweet," and "sweet."

I like Oscaar's definition of "nornal" as a moving target. That's very accurate! "Normal" isn't a figure, it's a variable range. That certainly applies to perceived sweetness according to final gravity readings.

Are you keeping track of your FG and making comparisons to you and your husband's perception of "sweet"?

More or less. I'm posting the SG in the Brewlog, and also (usually) my perception of it. For me, the "Ugh, too sweet" dropped off at a reading of about 1.06 on the hydrometer, but Bruce didn't start saying it was okay until 1.046ish (the sample from 8/31). At that point he said it was okay but still very sweet. I'm about to pour this morning's sample off of the lees and check the SG again.

 

[Dan McFeeley]

From the Mazer Cup Competition in 1997:

Dry: .996 - 1.009
Medium: 1.010 - 1.019
Sweet: 1.020 and above

I'm not sure what the categories are for the current IMA competiton
are. Oscaar can probably kick in on this one.

Even within these ranges, there's still a lot of room for varience of
perceived sweetness. A FG of 1.000 and less can taste really bone
dry and austere, versus a mead with a FG of 1.009, still technically
"dry" but with a bit more sweetness to accentuate the taste of the
varietal honey/s used in the mead.

"Mouth feel," i.e., the perceived viscosity and "texture" of the mead,
can also play a role in perceived sweetness. A dry mead with good
mouthfeel will taste "sweeter" than a mead with the same FG but
with less mouth feel.

It can come down to the varietal honey/s used in the mead, assuming
this is a traditional mead. Melomels and metheglins can be an even
more complex matter.

I once made a smoked jalapeno mead, upped the heat index with a
liquor made from habanero chile peppers, which needed a FG of 1.030
plus to balance everything out. Allthough the sweetness was at desert
wine level and above, tasters of the mead couldn't tell this because
of the strength of the factors making up the flavor profile, and the
way they were balanced off.

 

[AsharaLyn]

Just tasted the sample from this morning, which is showing a refrigerator-temp SG of 1.042. It's actually a little less sweet than I'd like, so we turned the mead locker on to cold crash. Hopefully it'll cool down fairly quickly and stop the fermentation. After cold crashing, racking, sulfite/sorbate, etc, I'll check the for the final gravity and add it to my brewlog.

Thanks for the listing... I think I'd read that range somewhere else on the board, but so far I haven't been able to check my own personal taste against the list.

 

[Dan McFeeley]

Wayne just pointed out to me that what I'd posted on hydrometers in
winemaking and meadmaking was a bit confusing (it was -- I hadn't
worded it well) so I wanted to clarify that point a bit better.

The scales on hydrometers are calculated specifically according to sugar
solutions in water. So, when you're thinking of the sugar content
according to Brix or Specific Gravity, that means that 100% of the
solids in that solution are fementable. All other calculations from
hydrometer scales, such as percent of alcohol, are based on sugar
solutions in water.

In winemaking, the percentage of fermentable sugars out of the
total amount of solids in a grape must is something like 94%. So,
in winemaking, you can use the scales of a hydrometer and make
reasonably accurate predictions based on those scales, knowing
they're actually calculated for sugar solutions. The difference
between 100% and 94% is so close, you can assume they're
equivalent.

Honey must is a bit different. The average amount of fermentable
sugars out of the total amount of solids in water is something like
87%, and that figure can vary according to the type of varietal
honey. In other words, and maybe to put it a bit more simply,
there is more unfermentable "stuff" in a honey must, regardless
of varietal honey type/s, then there is in grape must.

Although that means that hydrometer readings in meadmaking are
going to be less accurate than hydrometer readings in winemaking,
even in musts with the same specific gravity, that's not a reason
to throw them away (unless you're Ancient Joe! ;D ). They're
still invaluable, it's only a matter of keeping in mind that they're not
quite as accurate in meadmaking as they are in winemaking, and
that when you come right down to it, the individual palate is the
best judge.

Thanks Wayne -- hope that was better said this time around!

 

[wayneb]

Thanks Wayne -- hope that was better said this time around!

Yep! Thanks for the citation, but it really wasn't necessary....

 

[Oskaar]

LOL, I have some that are older than many of the posters here on Got Mead? LOL

I'll have to see if I can make time to photo one or two of them.

I think you've said elsewhere that the winemaking tradition in your family line, ethnic and so on, goes back 2,000 years? Probably longer?

If these are hydometer passed on from generation to generation, we're talking about some pretty old stuff! ;D ;D ;D

I believe Sir Digby talks about using eggs as a hydrometer? (I have a really great article on the accuracy of eggs as hydrometers during Medieval times) What were they using before then? ;D ;D ;D

The winemaking tradition on Vis goes back (documented at least) about 2500 years and was remarked on in the fifth century BCE by a Greek poet who claimed that the wine produced on Issa (Vis) was the best in the Adriatic.

I can only trace my family back to the early 1500's, and our family home on Vis to the 1700's, but it is definitely set up with a cellar that was intended for wine. We have several parcels of property on the island too, so I'm sure there were Figs and Olives in the mix as well as fishing since there are still commercial fishing boats in the family still. I wish I could go back and watch my ancestors to the harvest and watch the process from start to finish, there would be so much to learn.

Cheers,

Oskaar

 

[Dan McFeeley]

The winemaking tradition on Vis goes back (documented at least) about 2500 years and was remarked on in the fifth century BCE by a Greek poet who claimed that the wine produced on Issa (Vis) was the best in the Adriatic.

I can only trace my family back to the early 1500's, and our family home on Vis to the 1700's, but it is definitely set up with a cellar that was intended for wine. We have several parcels of property on the island too, so I'm sure there were Figs and Olives in the mix as well as fishing since there are still commercial fishing boats in the family still. I wish I could go back and watch my ancestors to the harvest and watch the process from start to finish, there would be so much to learn.

This is really, really cool stuff. Thanks for posting it.

Here in the United States, we have a really poor idea of history and family tradition. Think about it. The history of our country is only a bit over two centuries. Overseas, history is reckoned in millenia. From their perspective, we're the new kids on the block with ADHD.

Only recently, with the help of my cousin, I discovered that our Irish family history derives from the Inishowen peninsula in Ireland. Poteen -- illegal distilled whiskey, was known all over Ireland, but especially in county Donegal, and even more so in Inishowen. I'm especially proud to find myself in an Irish family tradition -- not so much with distilled whiskey, but even older, going back to the Celtic Irish of Inishowen.

It's sort of like finding where your feet are, where the roots extend. I didn't know, until the recent
year, that my interest and passion for fermented beverages goes back millinia. Oskaar already knew
this, from his own research. It makes a difference in finding this.

Back to toics in the here and now -- I threw out a quick post, more or less, on the percentage
of fermentable sugars in honey must, compared to the same ratio of fermentable sugars in grape
must. I stated that the ratios are different, compared with honey must and grape must, and that
there are less fermentable sugars in honey must, as compared with wine grape must. It's no biggie,
honey must can be fermented to mead, just as grape must can be fermented to wine. It's important
to realize that mead is not the same thing as wine, although it takes specific figures to realize the
difference, which I didn't supply.

I'll do some digging into my file to try and help out here, although, keep in mind that the end result,
mead, isn't going to change. Mead is mead, grape wine is grape wine. They're two qualitatively
different things, even though the methods of achieving the same, are the same. The difference
is between honey and grape -- two different biological products. One is plant, the by honey bees.

A quick start here, from Eva Crane's short book "A Book of Honey": Hope I can get all this
in before the time out kicks in . . .

from Table 5, appedix 2, pg. 169 . . .

monosacharides (70% of honey)
glucose (dextrose) fructose (levulose)

disacharides
sucrose (1 - 3 % of honey)
reducing disacchrides, calculated as maltose (7% of honey)
maltose nigerose gentiobose
isomaltose turanose laminaribiose
maltuloise kojibiose leucrose
isommaltulose neotrehalose

trisaccharides and higher sugars (1-5% of honey)
melezitose erlose 1-kestose
raffinose dextrantriose panose
isopanose maloriose isomaltitriose
isomaltotetraose isomaltopentaose 3-alpha-isomaltosylglucose
6g-alpha-glucosylsucrose centose
arabogalactomannan

whew!



from John W. Whites's 1960's survey of 490 samples of American Honeys . . .
Please -- keep in mind that these are only averages, and the actual
figures for the individual varietal honey can vary a great deal . . .




AVERAGE COMPOSITION OF 490 SAMPLES OF HONEY AND RANGE OF VALUES
_______________________________________________________________
Standard
Characteristics Measured Average Deviation Range
_______________________________________________________________

Moisture, percentage 17.2 1.46 13.40 - 22.9
Fructose, percentage 38.19 2.07 27.25 - 44.26
Glucose, percentage 31.28 3.03 22.03 - 40.75
Sucrose, percentage 1.31 0.95 0.25 - 7.57
Maltose, percentage 7.31 2.09 2.74 - 15.98
Higher sugars, percentage 1.50 1.03 0.13 - 8.49
Undetermined, percentage 3.1 1.97 0.0 - 13.2
pH 3.91 ---- 3.42 - 6.10
Free Acid, meq/kg 22.03 8.22 6.75 - 47.19
Lactone, meq/hg 7.11 3.52 0.00 - 18.76
Total Acid, meq/kg 29.12 10.33 8.68 - 59.49
Lactone/free acid 0.335 0.135 0.000 - .950
Ash, percentage 0.169 0.15 0.020 - 1.028
Nitrogen, percentage 0.041 0.026 0.000 - .133




Average Composition of Honey Samples Classified by Color

Color Code %Moisture %Fructose %Glucose %Sucrose %Maltose %Higher Sugars
_________________________________________________________________________

0 16.7 38.51 32.59 2.71 6.48 1.16
1 16.7 38.04 31.79 1.83 7.09 1.40
2 17.1 38.56 32.38 1.31 6.76 1.44
3 17.1 38.33 32.60 1.63 6.54 1.30
4 17.3 38.62 32.28 1.38 6.64 1.24
5 17.6 38.32 32.19 1.16 6.78 1.18
6 17.0 38.48 31.32 1.19 7.28 1.41
7 17.6 38.83 30.85 1.06 7.11 1.21
8 17.2 37.89 29.76 .99 8.37 1.75
9 17.5 36.92 29.96 1.01 8.33 1.89
10 16.5 34.19 26.47 .87 10.45 3.80
11 17.1 34.96 26.39 .88 10.04 2.64
12 18.9 36.34 29.60 .93 8.05 1.63



Average Composition of Honey Samples Classified by Color (cont.)

Color Code Color pH Total Acid (Meq/kg)
_________________________________________________________________________
0 Light half of Water White 3.87 16.25
1 Dark half of Water White 3.82 18.99
2 Light half of Extra White 3.83 21.44
3 Dark half of Extra White 3.79 24.15
4 Light half of White 3.32 27.67
5 Dark half of White 3.87 28.89
6 Light half of Extra Light Amber 3.94 31.44
7 Dark half of Extra Light Amber 3.95 34.05
8 Light half of Light Amber 4.18 33.80
9 Dark half of Light Amber 4.00 40.46
10 Light half of Amber 4.44 41.25
11 Dark half of Amber 4.40 46.00
12 Dark Amber 4.02 44.14


This should do for a start -- the main point is, not to lose sight of
the main point on this particular threat -- that grape must is different
from honey must, and that the amount of feremntable sugars in honey
must, subject to variation according to varietal honey/s, is less than
that of wine grape must.

Still no biggie -- honey must is fermenable, just as is wine grape
must. You have to take different considerations, whether you're
making wine or mead, and mead indeed is not the same thing as
wine.

I'll post more on this later, but don't take my guestimate of 87% as
a set figure. I'm only working from memory, which is not reliable.
Just take it that honey must has a bit less fermentable sugars than
grape must, and we can work out the specific figures later.

Mead is mead, and wine is wine!

 

[Oskaar]

The winemaking tradition on Vis goes back (documented at least) about 2500 years and was remarked on in the fifth century BCE by a Greek poet who claimed that the wine produced on Issa (Vis) was the best in the Adriatic.

I can only trace my family back to the early 1500's, and our family home on Vis to the 1700's, but it is definitely set up with a cellar that was intended for wine. We have several parcels of property on the island too, so I'm sure there were Figs and Olives in the mix as well as fishing since there are still commercial fishing boats in the family still. I wish I could go back and watch my ancestors to the harvest and watch the process from start to finish, there would be so much to learn.

This is really, really cool stuff. Thanks for posting it.

Here in the United States, we have a really poor idea of history and family tradition. Think about it. The history of our country is only a bit over two centuries. Overseas, history is reckoned in millenia. From their perspective, we're the new kids on the block with ADHD.

Only recently, with the help of my cousin, I discovered that our Irish family history derives from the Inishowen peninsula in Ireland. Poteen -- illegal distilled whiskey, was known all over Ireland, but especially in county Donegal, and even more so in Inishowen. I'm especially proud to find myself in an Irish family tradition -- not so much with distilled whiskey, but even older, going back to the Celtic Irish of Inishowen.

Wow, I knew you were a rebel, I just didn't know your family ran 'shine! LOL!!

This should do for a start -- the main point is, not to lose sight of
the main point on this particular threat -- that grape must is different
from honey must, and that the amount of feremntable sugars in honey
must, subject to variation according to varietal honey/s, is less than
that of wine grape must.

Still no biggie -- honey must is fermenable, just as is wine grape
must. You have to take different considerations, whether you're
making wine or mead, and mead indeed is not the same thing as
wine.

I'll post more on this later, but don't take my guestimate of 87% as
a set figure. I'm only working from memory, which is not reliable.
Just take it that honey must has a bit less fermentable sugars than
grape must, and we can work out the specific figures later.

Mead is mead, and wine is wine!

Totally true, and that's why we also need to keep in mind the need for additional nutrients, proper fermentation management and timely treatments in order to keep our honey must happy, healthy and vigorous!

Cheers,

Oskaar

 

[JayH]

While I don’t know about earlier ancestors, my grandmother was rumored to have been a major supplier during prohibition, though no one had ever been able to prove it. Evidently the police had searched on several occasions but could never find a still or any evidence. When she died though by older brother and I were taking out all the century old heating and plumbing to redo the house when we found it. Built into the top of the furnace for the steam pipes to heat the house was an addition tank carefully hidden away. From that tank copper the tubes ran up into the rafters and back down to a hidden cupboard behind the dumbwaiter. Good old Grandma.


Cheers
Jay

 

[Oskaar]

While I don’t know about earlier ancestors, my grandmother was rumored to have been a major supplier during prohibition, though no one had ever been able to prove it. Evidently the police had searched on several occasions but could never find a still or any evidence. When she died though by older brother and I were taking out all the century old heating and plumbing to redo the house when we found it. Built into the top of the furnace for the steam pipes to heat the house was an addition tank carefully hidden away. From that tank copper the tubes ran up into the rafters and back down to a hidden cupboard behind the dumbwaiter. Good old Grandma.


Cheers
Jay

Friggin' awesome dude!

Oskaar

 

[wayneb]

Dan, You're the Man! This is exactly the kind of data I was looking for. I'll have a bottle or two of my stuff set aside for you at the next IMF! :cheers:

And Oskaar, although I can't trace a direct connection back to a meadmaking branch of the family in Poland, I figure it must be in the genes. After trying out beer brewing, winemaking (various fruits as well as grape) and putting up hosts of infusions and the like, I decided to give meadmaking a try -- and I've never gone back! Working with honey just feels right, and the degree of control coupled with the wide variety of possible results continues to keep me involved and fascinated with the process.

 

[Dan McFeeley]

This is really, really cool stuff. Thanks for posting it.

Here in the United States, we have a really poor idea of history and family tradition. Think about it. The history of our country is only a bit over two centuries. Overseas, history is reckoned in millenia. From their perspective, we're the new kids on the block with ADHD.

Only recently, with the help of my cousin, I discovered that our Irish family history derives from the Inishowen peninsula in Ireland. Poteen -- illegal distilled whiskey, was known all over Ireland, but especially in county Donegal, and even more so in Inishowen. I'm especially proud to find myself in an Irish family tradition -- not so much with distilled whiskey, but even older, going back to the Celtic Irish of Inishowen.

Wow, I knew you were a rebel, I just didn't know your family ran 'shine! LOL!!

I don't know with certainty whether or not they were making "the creature" during the 1800's, but it's very likely. Donegal is a mountainous and isolated area, making it difficult to regulate illegal distillation. A couple of books I found were good references on the subject -- "Donegal Poteen" and "In Praise of Poteen." In some areas of Donegal it was so common, just about every other stone cabin had its own still.

One of my ancestors was John McFeeley, who ran the local Public House/Grocery store (in those days both were combined). I'd say it was likely he was helping to sell the stuff. John was also the postmaster for the village.

It was a tough issue between the Gaelic Irish, who were mostly poor tennant farmers at the time, versus the Protestant Ascendency in Ireland. England needed money for its frequent European wars, taxing fermented beverages was one way to raise it. The Irish saw distilling as nothing more than another product of the line, and much more profitable. You could earn a lot more money converting barley to whiskey then simply selling the grain as is.

Poteen making and drinking dropped off after the Gaelic Irish began to win their land rights. Not very many people make it now but occasionally there might be a report in the news on seizures of illegal whiskey.

 

[Oskaar]

This is very cool Dan!

Groceries and Public Houses are really well respected/established places in Croatia as I'm sure they are in Ireland! In the smaller villages in Croatia, and especially on the islands it's a very important duty to go the the grocery to pick up supplies, and everyone knows the owner/proprieter.

Cheers,

Oskaar