Toggle sidebar

Just nervous-moral support please

  • PATRONS: Did you know we've a chat function for you now? Look to the bottom of the screen, you can chat, set up rooms, talk to each other individually or in groups! Click 'Chat' at the right side of the chat window to open the chat up.
  • Love Gotmead and want to see it grow? Then consider supporting the site and becoming a Patron! If you're logged in, click on your username to the right of the menu to see how as little as $30/year can get you access to the patron areas and the patron Facebook group and to support Gotmead!
  • We now have a Patron-exclusive Facebook group! Patrons my join at The Gotmead Patron Group. You MUST answer the questions, providing your Patron membership, when you request to join so I can verify your Patron membership. If the questions aren't answered, the request will be turned down.
Barrel Char Wood Products
Well, I couldn't help myself. I had to taste it! (21 days in the secondaries)

Its interesting, the 2 carboys are tasting a bit different. Both are golden in color, with a hint of heather bouquet - not as much as I would have thought. But pleasant

The one averaging mid 50's is harsh and very dry. The one outside which is ranging in the 40's is much mellower and not quite as dry, but still dry.

Whoever posted the original Heather Metheglin recipe back-sweetened it and added more heather "tea", which I might do. I am going to let the other half taste and see what he thinks.

Thoughts/comments?
 
OK, life is going to force me to bottle them. I am getting ready to move and need to pack everything away.

The boys tasted the little bit that I stole a couple weeks? ago and like it so hey, if they will drink it maybe I didn't do too bad. (They can be pretty snobby.)

I am thinking that I am going to recombine the two carboys into one, let it resettle for a couple days then bottle. I have brought them upstairs where the average temp is 71 unfortunately. I don't have workspace in the cooler parts of the house to rack/bottle. There are some small particulates floating at the surface that are collecting little rings of bubbles...Is this a problem?

Any other words of wisdom, before I bite the bullet and bottle this? My only regret is that I am going to have to put it into screw top bottles as I don't have a hand corker nor the money to put into one right now.

Wish me luck!
 
Just a word of caution. You said that one batch was drier than the other and that you were going to combine the two - if there are still viable yeasties in there, they could chow down on whatever sugars you have left and restart fermentation. If fermentation is still going when you bottle with screwcaps you could end up with a recipe for mead grenades :o (or maybe just a touch of sparkle). Your SG was low enough that I'm guessing that you wouldn't have enough to build up terribly much pressure even if it tried that - more of a theoretical possibility than a likelihood, I'd think.
 
Thanks for the input. At this point it is a risk I am going ot have to take. I am moving next weekend :( And I am concerned about moving active/full carboys. Don't want to stir up all the shtuff on the bottom.
 
Well here is an update...

I combined the 2 batches and muffed it up - stirred up the lees pretty bad in the carboy I was racking from. Did that on...3.10.2006 if i remember correctly. So I went for broke and rather than trying to keep any of the gunk out of the other carboy, I moved it all. I put it back out into the 55 degree garage. I ran another gravity reading - still at 1.0 dead on pretty much. I tasted the combined from the gravity read theif and it is still pretty young. On some advice from my friend Grayleaf, I decided to leave it in the carboy for the actual move.

So it got moved to my boyfriends garage on 3/18 and there it sits. I haven't even really checked on it since. With all my stuff in storage, I really can't do much to it.

I may go buy a new racking tube setup - I have started to notice some striations/hairline cracks or scratches in my current 4? year old one. I can get to my other 5.5 gal carboy. So with that, can rack it off the now combined lees and continue letting it age and clear...

Thoughts comments would be appreciated. I am nervous that all my mucking about and moving may have toasted this batch.
 
Don't worry, let the thing sit until it clears. Taste about every two weeks or so to see where it's headed.

Once it is clear you can decide on backsweetening, more heather tea, etc. Things will be just fine :) Mead, for all the cautions we take can be incredibly robust and forgiving as well.

Your experience is why I always say to make several batches of basic, traditional mead before you decide to get fancy. That doesn't mean that you shouldn't experiment, just do it parallel to your basic batches and live it up with the experiment. To me making basic batches and reproducing your results dead-on each time is the goal. After that you can improvise, or you can improvise in parallel. The point is learn to walk before you try the 100m hurdles.

It's really important to know the various stages of fermentation, and what to expect when racking, clearing, backsweeting, aging, etc. Once you have a firm grasp of that you will know where your failure/opportunity points are to make treatments and adjustments to your meads after having practiced on your basics. There are other subtleties of treating, infusing and adjusting that you'll want to try with melomels, meths, etc, that are not necessarily needed in traditionals and vice versa.

I guess my advice would be to make some basic meads to really dial in your technique, and then get fancy once you've gotten really good at basics. Hey, after making mead for the last twenty some odd years I've gone back to basics to revisit my techniques and new methodologies that are adding value in the wine world. I'm finding some of them to be of value in the mead world as well.

Hope that helps,

Oskaar
 
As mentioned below, let your goal of what you want as an end product, rather than a timetable govern when to rack. Certain yeasts impart benefical qualities to your mead when exposed to the lees, one such yeast is D47.

It releases complex polysaccharides during the end of primary fermentation and autolysis. These polysaccharides are mainly glucans and mannoprotiens. In oenology mannoprotiens play mulitple roles, they act as stabilizing agents with tartrate and protien precipitations, as aroma support, and as stabilizers for polyphenolic compounds.

In mead they have another benficial effect which is to add body, fullness and richness during extended lees exposure. I use D47 exensively in my traditional meads and cysers, and the effect of exposure to the lees is profound in my opinion. I let them go on the lees in the primary for up to six months. See my photos from the New Year Cyser thread in the Brewlog section of this board.

Envision your end product, design your must with that in mind and then choose your yeast accordingly. Some yeasts you'll want to rack off of in a hurry, others you won't. The beauty is that you have abundant choices.

Cheers,

Oskaar
 
There's really nothing to go around about.

Pewter is not well informed enough about the number of different yeasts that are indicated for lees aging to really speak with any degree of authority.

A simple few moments of checking on the yeast you are using before you allow extended lees contact is all you have to do to avoid imparting any yeasty off flavors from the lees. So you can do a bit of research up front or even ask a few questions here to avoid any problems.

Pewter tends to make blanket statements like:

"The chance the lees of a yeast other than D-47 is going to harm the taste of a batch is greater than the chance it will help."

I find this pretty funny since two of the top four yeasts I see discussed on this board regularly are indicated for lees aging. I'll let Pewter tell you which yeasts those are.

Cheers,

Oskaar
 
The chance the lees of a yeast other than D-47 is going to harm the taste of a batch is greater than the chance it will help. As you get closer to the alcohol tolerance of the yeast, the negative impact will be potentially even greater as the yeast becomes strained by the alcohol.
Click to expand...

Um, no. I've been leaving my meads on *all* the yeasts I use, for *years* now, and find that in almost *all* cases, it improves the mead, adding complexity, and depth to the brew. Lees are an essential part of creating mead, just as grape skins are in making wine. You wouldn't expect to make a great cabernet without leaving it on the skins.

I've got around 60 gallons right now, and every one is sitting on lees. I'll rack off them a couple times when I'm ready to bottle, just because I don't care to decant every bottle as I drink it, but lees are a Good Thing.

Vicky - leave the lees
 
Pewter,

You keep pointing to your master brewers and your friends who have taken courses where they say lees are bad, yet give no real places for us to research and see what the research has been, who has done it, or what specific studies have been done with what conclusions.

There is plenty of information on lees aging being beneficial to wine and mead from the very yeast manufacturing companies whose yeasts you use. There are also plenty of other resources freely available on the web for you to research. All you have to do is a simple google search to find them and de-ignorize yourself about lees aging. If you want to speak out of ignorance feel free to do so, just don't try to pass that off as fact to other people who don't know any better.

Oskaar
 
Well, I don't know your friend Scott. And the Barons aren't here to speak for their own research.

Pewter, if you're going to say that this is the way to go, then support it with valid resources, not 'my friend says'.

You yourself admit you're a relatively new brewer, and there are folks here with over 30 years of experience who say lees are good in many cases.

If you say lees are bad, speak to specific yeasts and specific circumstances. Don't tar the entire issue with the same brush, that's not good research, and misleads the newbees into thinking that lees are always bad, when that is simply not the case.

Folks, if you want to give the newbees advice, then *please* make sure what you're saying is valid. Saying 'always do this' or 'never do that' is poor advice (and bad research technique), unless you can support your recommendation with research and backing from those who have been brewing longer than many here have been *alive*.

Pewter, I'm not trying to slam you, but you're not giving advice that is supported properly, and it might mislead someone into making a lesser mead than it might have been, possibly even costing them a competition. Do your yeast research, then come back and tell us what you learned.

If the Barons wish to come here and tell us what they know, we'll be happy to listen. Likewise for your friend and his expert.

What I've learned as 'fact' has changed time and again as I learn more. Be willing to accept that as you progress in your mead education, you might actually find out that previous ideas are not necessarily the best way. Such was me when I discovered that you didn't have to boil. I no longer do.

The DeLondres meads are nice meads. But they (nor anyone) are not the end-all of mead knowledge. Do your homework, and learn from multiple sources.
 
Pewter,

You're missing the point. It's not a competition, it's simply facts versus non-facts. I did not call you ignorant, I indicated that you should take the opportunity to research this subject and de-ignorize yourself about lees aging. Because you are ignorant of the facts about lees aging.

I'm sure your meads and DeLondres meads are wonderful. That has absolutely zero to do with lees aging and how it affects taste, structure and complexity. Do the reasearch and you will find there are many benefits to lees aging.

Of course it's always your choice to make mead the way you like. But, don't try to tell people that lees are bad based on secondhand information and present it as a fact.

This is not personal it is about facts.

Peace,

Oskaar
 
Pewter,

Now you're just being melodramatic.

Bottom line is you made a blanket statement and I called you on it. Deal with it or don't. That's up to you.

Oskaar

UPDATE TO THIS POST AND THREAD:

If these posts look odd it's because Pewter deleted his posts in between the responses from Vicky and I. I'm leaving my posts because I stand by what I said.

Thanks,

Oskaar
 
Some lees aging material for those of you who are curious

Interesting articles and yeast descriptions:

Champagne and lees aging:
http://www.thewinenews.com/decjan0001/cover.html

See descriptions of D47, MO5 and CY3079
http://www.vinquiry.com/pdf/yeasts2000.pdf

Barrel descriptions and more yeast information:
http://winebusiness.com/html/PrinterVersion.cfm?dataId=29559

Good article on yeast and some nice information on lees aging:
http://www.beveragebusiness.com/bbcontent/art-arch/99block09.html

Good article on MicroOxygenation of wines and gross lees contact:
http://www.beveragebusiness.com/bbcontent/art-arch/nesto1201.html

Barrel fermentation and lees management:
http://www.fst.vt.edu/extension/enology/VC/May-June99.html

Excerpt of an email from Clayton Cone:

". . . pH information on each fermentation is good to have. You
may find that you do not need potassium carbonate on some types or
batches of honey. If the pH does not drop below 3.0 during the first 12
to 24 hours you will not need potassium carbonate.

71B should give you a light and fruity mead that is at its best when
racked ASAP.

D47 is good for aging on the lees. It should give you good mouthfeel and
structure.

K1 is good for quick racking or aging on the lees.

Let me know the results of your fermentations. Give me some descriptors
that I can put into my files.

Thanks

Clayton

PS: Are you going commercial?"


Well, there's something to get started with.

Also see the brewlog entry of my New Year Cyser Here



Cheers,

Oskaar
 
Holiday,

The following is excerpted from a much longer article on micro-oxygenation (http://www.beveragebusiness.com/bbcontent/art-arch/nesto1201.html) but I think it talks about gross lees aging in terms of how I brew and what I expect to see happen...

...."The research shows that if maturation on lees is sensitively managed, there are, in fact, numerous benefits. If the lees are not managed correctly, the decomposition of yeast and bacteria can result in bad odors which can degrade or destroy wine. There are two categories of post fermentation lees. The gross lees are the thick layer of yeasts, bacteria and other sediments that lie at the bottom of the tank after alcoholic fermentation, or after the alcoholic and malolactic fermentations, if these two fermentations are more or less simultaneously achieved. The fine lees are the thin layer of sediments that remain after a previous racking has removed the gross lees. Maturation of red wines on the fine lees is an option in traditional Burgundian red winemaking. Occasionally, this technique is used on Pinot Noir wines made in other countries. Maturation on fine lees does not usually include batonnage. Maturation of red wines on the gross lees, however, is a new technique. which requires batonnage (lees stirring) to control bad odors given off by the large amount of decaying yeasts and bacteria. While maturation on the gross lees offers more potential benefits than maturation on the fine lees, the risks are substantially greater."

....and....

"When the gross lees form a sediment more than ten centimeters thick and this sediment remains undisturbed for about one week or more, yeast autolysis typically encourages bad-smelling sulfur-containing compounds such as hydrogen sulfide, disulphide, or mercaptan. Batonnage helps lift up and homogenize nitrogenous compounds and polysaccharides, therefore reducing the possibility that the lees will become putrid. Batonnage reduces the liquid pressure on yeast cells, a factor that increases the development of negative sulfur-containing compounds. It also mixes air into the wine, thus macro-oxygenating it. In addition, batonnage also increases mannoprotein-anthrocyanin combinations by as much as 20%. It enhances the colloidal state of the tannins and intensifies color stability and soft tannin palate expression. Winemakers usually combine micro-oxygenation and/or macro-oxygenation with batonnage in order to enhance their control over the oxidation-reduction potential of maturing red wine. The lees push the wine towards reduction. Batonnage and/or MO push the wine towards oxidation."

My only comment would be that what constitutes "gross lees" for a brewer working in smaller batches like we do is not 10 cm but maybe that magical 1/2 inch I have mentioned before.

Good luck and let us know how it turns out,
Pewter

Additional note: I post this because my technique, however poor or good, does not include daily stirrings of each batch. I tend to pitch a batch and let it sit until I rack it, which I believe duplicates what a lot of people here do as well. Given that fact, I believe that the comments about damage due to gross lees aging apply to my meads. You decide if they might apply to yours...
 
The article referenced by both Pewter and I is a very good article pointing out both the benefits and possible detriments of aging on the gross lees. The article points out that the benefits of gross lees aging can really only be accomplished by batonnage (stirring of the lees in order to eliminate the sulfur aroma and poor taste developed in the gross lees)

As Pewter mentions below, if the gross lees are left in tact without being disturbed, then you have a very real potential for imparting off flavors. I tested that with my New Year Cyser in which I used dried cherries (Ranier and Montmorency) for the tannin the skins would impart into the mead. I found that early oxygenation and stirring, along with additional stirring added a great deal of complexity to the cyser which is now a little over a year old. It's incredibly complex and very well structured. I'll continue to refine this process in my meadmaking, especially in this particular cyser recipe.

Note that below Pewter mentions that he does not stir his batches daily. That's fine, as I have mentioned in other posts and will reaffirm here, I do. this is all part of using the lees to increase the complexity and structure of the mead. Batonnage has also been discussed in a few other threads as well.

I reference the following comments on this specific cyser from people who have tried it:

See here for comments from Comrade who's posted here a couple of times and is a member of the homebrew club I recently joined.

Rezzin from Brewcommune said:

"Once again we had a good time over at Lyns. Oskaar stopped by and shared some of his incredible Cyser. I've been dying to try some of this stuff and pretty much was inspired by what I tasted. I will definitely be giving it a shot sometime down the road - hopefully in the near future. I'm brewing my first all grain batch tomorrow and I can't wait!"

Spkrtoy of Brewcommune said:

"Hmmm, Oskaar's Cyser with Cider/orange blossom honey, tart/sweet cherry's and aged 14+ months at 16% ABV, all I gotta say is WOW Laughing .

If I get that bug, watch out....



Right now I'm just trying to make some competition style beer.


Patience is the rule with the mead and up categories.

Rule of thumb: first learn to make beer, make it consistently, then perfect it so you make it everytime, then branch out.

I'm toooooo damn impatient to make the mead/cyser and up....

Damn nice one Oskarr!!! Please sir, may I have another????"

So I'm fairly confident that the lees aging was well enough integrated into this specific cyser to make a lasting impression on those that tasted it.

Cheers,

Oskaar
 
Well, after all of that, the lees aging has it - for at least another week or two. I am off to CA today and then to AZ next week, so I don't have time to rack it off.

I appreciate the technical and untechnical advice that everyone provided. I have tended to brew beer like I cook - I start out with following the basic instructions to the letter and then once I am comfortable with the process, I go by gut with that foundation of the technical understanding of the techniques - but I don't always measure and I finger taste.

Holly
 
Now this is good info.

Gotmead visitors and regulars: All I ask is that you are specific about whether a recommendation you are making is your personal preference, or established technique based on published results (and please list your references when you do this, it helps everyone).

I know we've folks here ranging from brand-newbees to old farts who've been brewing forever. Your experience and insight are valuable, whether you've been brewing for a week or 40 years. But be aware that people don't always know what's 'established' and what's 'opinion', so please be clear when you give advice.

You'd feel pretty bad if you sold your personal way to someone as accepted norm, and their mead came out like crap. I know I would.

Vicky - who brews by the seat of her pants, your mileage may vary
 
Holiday said:
I have tended to brew beer like I cook - I start out with following the basic instructions to the letter and then once I am comfortable with the process, I go by gut with that foundation of the technical understanding of the techniques - but I don't always measure and I finger taste.
Click to expand...
Holly,

I am with you. I treat my brewing as an inexact art form, not a science, and I am worried that not having the tastebuds to be a master chef may mean that I lack the tools to be a master brewer. My measure of a particular method or technique is not whether there is research to support it, but what the results are. I suppose I feel like we are trying to disclaim Grandma's Chocolate Cake recipe, even though she makes great cakes, because Grandma cannot cite some expert. My mentors make excellent meads and so I post their methods and use them myself. I find it humorous that those methods based on supposed ignorance actually do have factual basis that can be cited. But I'd still recommend them to friends even if they weren't supported by research. Please understand, and now all my posts carry the disclaimer, that I propose methods that work for me (and for others).

The proof, if you'd like some, will be available to you any time during Pennsic War in the DeLondres Camp. Please stop by if you make it to War. I will post a time and place for a mead tasting to also be held at War when the time gets closer and details are known. Last year's tasting was fun and a learning experience for everyone. You may get to meet several other posters from this forum at that event...

Good luck with your brews,
Pewter
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Barrel Char Wood Products

Viking Brew Vessels - Authentic Drinking Horns

Top Bottom