Just nervous-moral support please

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Pewter,

Making mead does not require anything other than ones time and a desire to make the best mead they can make with the tools at hand. Your analogies are poorly based and you know it.

No one here is going to impugn your or anyone else's opinion on how to make mead, wine, beer, chocolate cake or bathtub gin as long as it is stated as your preference, your opinion or your particular way of doing something. Both Vicky and I have pointed out over and over again that when you state opinion as fact we'll call you on it. We've done so here. Yet, you still insist on trying to play the martyr on these points.

Get on with it, get over it or move on. At this point you're just running laps and everyone here knows it.

Oskaar
 
Pewter,

Having Tasted both Oskaar's Mead and House De Londres', I'd have to say that as good as De Londres Mead is... and believe me it is excellent... Oskaar's Mead is simply incredible, an order of magnitude better. So yes although there are many different ways to make mead, and Oskaar's tips run counter to a number of those from House De Londres, from what I've tasted so far it's not even a close contest, Oskaar wins this one hands down. De Londres could learn a lot from Oskaar, and I'd pay good money to listen to the debates between them on methods and style.

This isn't to say De Londres' methods aren't valid, they are and they make some incredible mead, but Oskaar does have a handle on some techniques that would take them to a higher level.

Wrathwilde
 
I'm jumping into this a little late. I've been making mead for the better part of twenty years now, but my style is different from Oskaar's and many of the other old hands. I often let my meads stay on the lees, more out of lethargy than any real plan or intent. This means that battonage is not a technique I usually practice. I think my style (in this regard, anyway) is more like Pewter's than many other people who do lees aging.

Purely opinion here, but one based on experience: lees aging -- even rather extensive aging of up to several months -- has only rarely brought out what I considered to be off-flavors. I've let EC-1118 go up to (if memory serves me) about four months on a cyser once...blasphemy, I know. The effect...? A slight bittering in the aftertaste. I back-sweetened it a bit, let it age in the bottle for a month or so more, and had a perfectly pleasant mead for my (lack of) efforts. In a championship or competition level mead, this would certainly have been a flaw that a good judge would have picked up. But I didn't care.

Why?

Because the effect was not overly-pronounced and it didn't detract anything from my own enjoyment. I do this a lot -- that is, not worry, and just let the magic happen. Is it good procedure? Sure -- for me. For Oskaar, and probably many others it wouldn't be.

See, to me, it's all about what you're after. I'm after a nice mead without a lot of trouble. At one time, I was much more technical. I might go full circle one day and re-examine my basic mead making roots, but mead can be hard to screw up, once you're past the very basics. At some point early on in this hobby, you cross the routine "danger point" of mucking up a good thing, and get into an area of pure subjectiveness.

I'm sorry that some of the comments in this thread are gone, because I missed them the first time around and it's evolved into something pretty important, and, it seems, afield from the topic of lees aging. My view on lees aging is nonscientific and nonempirical: by and large, it's harmless and/or even quite beneficial for particular flavor effects. Again, we're talking about subjectiveness. Just because most of the professional and accomplished-amateur thinking in the wine and mead worlds leans towards the view that lees aging is (depending upon wine/mead style, and yeast used) a good thing, doesn't mean it ever was in ancient times -- or is now for people who seek to emulate and improve upon historical styles. And Pewter runs in that crowd, and comes from that tradition.

Outside of basic sanitation techniques, stating that "thus and such is good/bad practice", which we all tend to do, either overtly or otherwise, is greatly dependent upon background. Many of us like the science behind our opinions to have hardcore documentation. But in times long gone it was word-of-mouth, apprenticeship, and practice, practice, practice that made a mead its best. For his background and current desires, I'd say Pewter is doing things correctly.

By the same token, stating from the git-go that he's been taught by people who do things a certain way because it has proven to make the best mead for them time and again, is probably the best way to avoid miscommunication or apparent misinformation in the future. I'm as guilty as anybody of making blanket statements, and I've had to back off of them or substantiate them whenever I've been called on their validity. For historically-minded mazers of proven skill, such as some of Pewter's SCA friends reportedly are, it probably should be taken -- if not as fact, then certainly as truism -- when they say that something is good or bad practice, because they've found that particular thing to be that particular way by both tradition, and trial and error.

Now, I share what I consider to be the majority opinion here, when I say that it is quite regretful that the SCA and Renaissance Festival mead makers have been all but absent from these boards. With luck, that will someday change, but so far, we have yet to hear from even one "master brewer" of any house on any matter of importance. They have their own boards elsewhere on the Web, I assume, but by the very nature of their organizations, these places must be exclusive of more modern brewing approaches, and the people who practice them. That's fine, because Vicky was willing to devote as much space as they could ever want here at GM to post, persuade, or pontificate to their hearts' desire -- space that is nearly unused. Sad to say, but without their presence, nasty skirmishes like this one will happen again.

All that being said, I think much of what has transpired here is due to pride, miscommunication, and, yes, a difference of philosophy. Nonetheless, there isn't one of us currently posting at GM who wants to see anything but the betterment of our hobby; we all want newcomers to improve their skills and enjoy themselves; and we want the respect of the overall brewing community, society itself, and most of all...each other.

And now, vertigo forces me off of my soap-box. Thank you.

-David
 
This first part is for Pewter, since you decided to twit me in public:

Drop it. I told you what the problem was. Fix it or leave. More trying to force the issue of 'your' method as 'the' method will result in moderation. I tried being PC about this earlier in the thread, and you decided to ignore me.

My site. My forum. My rules. Clarify methods as 'yours', not 'standard' unless you can prove it with extensive cites.

===========================

Back to the discussion of which types of yeast are better/worse if you decide to let your mead sit on the lees. I tend to let mine sit there, just because I don't have time to rack when I'd like. That being said, so far I've not had problems, and some of my meads have sat there on 1/2-3/4 inch of lees for months.

Your mileage may vary, but I've not had problems with it. Certainly there are those who chose to rack off them at a certain time. It all depends on what you prefer to do.

Up until this last batch, I tended to use Red Star yeasts, particularly Premier Cuvee. I'm planning on branching out into Lallemand for my next batches, mainly because I get lots of feedback here that they're great.

A question that occurs to me, how does the *type* of mead being made combine with the yeast and leaving on the lees? Will a spice mead have more or less problems than a fruit mead using, say D-47?

Does anyone know if plastic pails can interact with lees? Just an idle thought, but it might have some relevance to those who secondary in pails. I do this sometimes if I've no carboy available, or if the batch exceeds my 5-gal carboy capacity.

I've always been a 'seat of the pants' meadmaker, the same way I cook. I use a core recipe, then embellish around the edges, don't take many measurements, and am not very scientific about it. My methods change with what I'm doing, and when I learn something new. I don't make yeast starters, just toss the packet contents into the must and shake the crap out of it. I pasteurize or pitch cold, depending on my whim at the moment. I usually *don't* boil (althought one of my best meads was one that was boiled for 1/2 hour, years ago). My mead-making methods are cobbled together from books, people with longer experience than me, and intuition. They change without notice, though, if I discover new things (which seems to happen daily around here!).
 
Just a couple of factoids:

I have several melomels that leaving on 71B-1122 too long has ruined. Racking off of this yeast is a published recommendation that should be taken seriously.

I have a batch of Sloppy Seconds Grape Wine that an additional 3 weeks on the K1V-1116 lees added some bad characteristics that will require quite a long time to age out, assuming that they will age out.

Good luck with your batches,
Pewter
 
WW,

I envy you. Based on Oskaar's family background in winemaking and the number of years he has been doing it, I am sure his stuff is really good. I should get to taste it when he gets around to sending me the yeast test batches he has owed me for a year or so...

Might I suggest you get into the Brewlog section and do a review of it in the thread that Oskaar has posted for that batch. Kinda like he did for your Maple one. It will help everyone here to recognize a superior batch, recipe, and how he got there.

Thanks,
Pewter
 
Pewter,

The particular batch he sent isn't in the brewlog, he's only mentioned it in passing in a couple of unrelated threads. I'll just say it was light, crisp and citrusy, incredibly well balanced with no alcohol burn, there was a slight smokey carmel taste about it. Very smooth, with good volume and mouthfeel. But this description doesn't even begin to describe how incredible Oskaar's mead is... His mead is complex in a myriad of subtle ways, just absolutely amazing.

Wrathwilde
 
OK I know I need to move this over to the brewlog but until I do - here is an update on the mead.

Last saturday 5/6/2006 - I racked off about 1.5 cups of the mead for tasting and CELEBRATION!!!! and then gave it a nice gentle stir.

I found the mead actually almost tasteless, but with a nice bouquet of honey and heather. To me it was like drinking an incredible light white wine with little or no bite and just a little hint of honey. Thoughts, ideas? comments?

My beau and his roomie were gaga over it :o ;D though it does taste better chilled according to them. My bad though, I didn't keep it under wraps so the bad evil roomie drank the vast majority of it. GRRRRR!

(As for the celebration - my boy dog got 2nd place at a race, my girl dog received her conformation Championship on Thursday and I had a kick ass interview on Friday which has now resulted in a job offer!!! )
 
Oh yeah, forgot to get input (she asks with trepidation ;)LOL ) the temp in the garage is climbing upwards of 75 degrees...what are the potential impacts of the higher temps?

As noted above, it has a pretty nice flavor now which I don't want to louse up. I am not yet in the best position to bottle but could if I HAD to...
 
Hey Girl,

I'd really try and get that to a spot where your temperature will not go over 70F. You can sometimes get away with over that and not have off flavors, but the longer you age/mature at or above 75F the more likely that you'll start throwing off flavors and fusels.

I'd recommend getting it to a spot in the house that will stay cooler and wrapping it in a blanket, or putting it in a tub of water to keep the temperature down. You can always add cooler water to the tub or just dump it and refill. I'm getting a small A/C unit for the meadworks after last year, we had a very hot summer here and I had to get a fan going out there and keep my carboys cool with a cooler. This year I'm going with A/C just to make it easier on the mead and I.

Cheers,

Oskaar

Either way, try to keep it below 75F and you'll be happier with the outcome.
 
I will get it moved into the house...the danger then becomes not so much the temperature but boys with long straws that want to tap the carboy! LOL So far they have mostly resisted the temptation...but if its actually IN THE HOUSE...I may have to attach an alarm system to the carboy...
 
Just tell them that you had two botulism cultures and you can't find one of them . . . and that you're mead is acting weird ... "Hmmm, I wonder where that other botulism culture went?" LoL

Cheers,

Oskaar
 
That's a good one! I got the mead moved with hopefully not too much sloshing and stirring. Its now a happy 68-72 degrees. sitting right next to an ac vent. I am going to Quest this weekend and will rack off a bottle or two I think...Maybe just one... I have a bottle of "lemony snickets" that another meader friend out here gave me...