K sorbate and cloudiness

[MFSHEPARD]

I am working on four small batches of mead, elderberry, blackberry, a BOMM AOM and a cyser. I added K-Meta to all yesterday and today added K-sorbate to the first three, with each I removed a small amount of mead, dissolved the K-sorbate, added back to carboy then stirred gently. When I tried this with the cyser the sorbate immediately caused a precipitate. The resulting suspension has remained stable for about 6 hours and is slowly settling out. I have about 5-6 oz of the cyser in a soda bottle so I dissolved the sorbate in water and added to about two ounces of this with the same reaction. I will want to back sweeten the cyser but I am hesitant to add the sorbate to the full gallon. Can anyone explain to me what is happening? Is it OK to go ahead and add?
recipe: 1 gallon of fresh apple cider,no preservatives, purchased locally from Mennonite farm last fall and frozen until I started it 1/24. added raisins/dates/tsp molasses/campden. 24 hours later added pectinase and honey, OG 1.089. D47, fermented in mid 60's. SNA according to Batchbuilder, 1.7g Fermaid O @ 24 and 48 hours, 1.9g Fermaid K and 1.1g DAP at 72 hours at this point it was already past 1/3 sugar break (sg 1.054) so I did not add additional nutrients. On 2/6 SG was 1.000 so cold crashed in an unheated room (temps may vary between mid thirties to sixty). 2/16 racked onto .44g K-Meta.

 

[4give]

If I'm following you correctly, the k-sorb caused suspended particles to drop out to the bottom? I haven't made a cyser yet, but plan to. If it doesn't taste or smell off, then I wouldn't worry about it. That said, maybe someone else will chime in that has more experience with cysers and has seen this before.
Let me know how much elderberry fruit you used for the size batch you have going. I'm thinking about one of those too. I have someone in my community that makes an awesome homemade elderberry syrup that I'm pretty sure has cinnamon and ginger in it. we do use it for health reasons, but it also tastes great as a vodka martini

 

[MFSHEPARD]

I pulled 30 ml from the carboy and added 1/2 tsp sorbate, instead of dissolving it immediately clouded and became thicker. I thought maybe the concentration was too high so I added 2 more ounces of the cyser to the beaker, did not change perceptibly. The picture is after it set for 24 hours. Since I don't know what caused this, or what it is, I did not taste it. It smells good and tasted good prior to adding sulfites. After I took this picture I filled the beaker with distilled water to see if it would disolve, it didn't. I also heated it to about 110 degrees with no change.

 

[4give]

I can't tell for sure, but it sort of looks like pectin dropping out. 1/2 tsp may not be "excessive" for a gallon, but I think you should really only be looking at .75 grams of k-sorb per gallon at most, and that's only if your PH exceeds 3.5. A 1/2 tsp is roughly 1.1 grams. I know I'm not answering part of your question directly as I can't fully tell you what is happening, but I think I'd feel safe adding .5-.75 grams of k-sorb to the gallon batch depending on your PH. The question I'd have for now would be if it's been too long since you dosed k-meta and you think any malolactic bacteria possibly got in there. You want to kill that with k-meta, then do the k-sorb. Probably OK to just move forward with the k-sorb IMO. I know it can be a bummer, but it is just a 1 gallon batch if it doesn't turn out.

 

[MFSHEPARD]

Thank you for your help. I’m confused about the last part of your post, I thought the K meta was to kill bacteria and K sorbate to inhibit the yeast, why would I need to worry about bacterial contamination due to the time between the two? It would seem to me the delay would only decrease the chance of stopping the yeast.
Using less K sorb is good to know, is this in general or only for a cyser. Most recommendations are to follow label.
is it a reasonable plan to age as is and repeat meta and sorbate when I rack it next time? It‘s off the gross lees and sg was 1.000 for a week prior to racking.

 

[MightyMosin]

I'll start by saying I do not know what has happened but lets try and discect what is going on a bit.

I added K-Meta to all yesterday and today added K-sorbate to the first three, with each I removed a small amount of mead, dissolved the K-sorbate, added back to carboy then stirred gently.

I do this with the K-Meta as well as it tends to not want to disolve very well. I have never needed to do this with the K-sorbate but it looks like it may have saved you some potential issues.

1.9g Fermaid K and 1.1g DAP at 72 hours at this point it was already past 1/3 sugar break (sg 1.054) so I did not add additional nutrients.

I work with Fermaid-O but I don't think that matters as far as your nutrients at that SG. Even though you were past the 1/3 break, you were only at 4.9% ABV and the yeast will continue to use the nutrients up until ~10% ABV. I would have given the remainder of the nutrients. This is something that I asked about recently myself.

2/16 racked onto .44g K-Meta.

The amount of K-Meta is based upon the pH. The lower the pH, the less that is needed. At .44 g, you would have had a pH of ~3.6 to need that much. Most apple juices are at about a pH of 3 with ciders usually being less. I'm not sure what the dates or molasses does for the pH but it's probably a good idea to check for adjusting the sulphite level in place of a shotgun approach.

I pulled 30 ml from the carboy and added 1/2 tsp sorbate, instead of dissolving it immediately clouded and became thicker

The K-sorbate is typically added by weight at .50 to .75 grams per gallon. I believe your volume was a bit more than needed for the gallon. Is all of that on the bottom the sorbate?
Edit: I just had to weigh a 1/2 tsp and I got 1.29g on my smaller scale (didn't unbox my more accurate one). So you were certainly way over what is needed for 1 gallon, especially if your pH was in the lower range.

With your FG at 1.000 you could probably skip the sorbate if you are not back sweetening. If you are back sweetening you could possibly use lactose (will certainly change the mouth feel and flavor some) or use erythritol sweetener. Both of these are not fermentable and will not start the yeast up again and would allow you to skip the sorbate.

Using less K sorb is good to know, is this in general or only for a cyser. Most recommendations are to follow label.

The labeling I have is as I stated above. I am unaware of different types needing different stabilization though the amount is pH dependent. I don't know the specific relationship but info from a cosmetic site is saying that "Potassium sorbate is the inactive salt of sorbic acid. It readily dissolves in water where it converts to sorbic acid, its active form, at a low pH. Sorbic acid is very pH dependent. While it shows some activity up to pH 6 (about 6%), it is most active at pH 4.4 (70%). At pH 5.0 it is 37% active."
Activity of Sorbic Acid
pH % Active Sorbic Acid
3 98
4 85
5 37
6 5.5
7 0

Usually a mead above pH of 4 isn't too typical without some added ingredient providing pH buffering. The lower the pH, the less stabilizers are needed and the better storage potential generally.

is it a reasonable plan to age as is and repeat meta and sorbate when I rack it next time?

These stabilizers will "fade" over time but that isn't usually an issue as far as I know. from a wine site:

1. While Crushing and Destemming: Add 50ppm of SO2 to suppress bad yeasts and bacteria

2. After Alcoholic Fermentation Has Completed: Add 0-10ppm SO2 if you are planning to perform a Malolactic Fermentation. If you are not planning to perform Malolactic Fermentation, move on to 3.

3. After Malolactic Fermentation and Prior to Aging: Add 50-75ppm SO2. This is your "big add". Beyond this, you will just want to assure that your levels do not drop below about 25ppm free SO2.

4. Each time you rack: Add about 25ppm SO2

5. At bottling: add about 35 or 40ppm of SO2

The 25ppm after each racking isn't something that I was aware of. I do plan on purchasing a free SO2 kit to measure so I know where I am at.

Potassium Sorbate vs. Potassium Metabisulfite

If you are getting started in winemaking, you may notice that nearly any set of instructions involves the addition of both potassium metabisulfite and potassium sorbate. You may then ask... Are these really necessary? What do they do? Will they give me headaches? Like any new winemaker...

www.smartwinemaking.com

 

[4give]

Thank you for your help. I’m confused about the last part of your post, I thought the K meta was to kill bacteria and K sorbate to inhibit the yeast, why would I need to worry about bacterial contamination due to the time between the two? It would seem to me the delay would only decrease the chance of stopping the yeast.
Using less K sorb is good to know, is this in general or only for a cyser. Most recommendations are to follow label.
is it a reasonable plan to age as is and repeat meta and sorbate when I rack it next time? It‘s off the gross lees and sg was 1.000 for a week prior to racking.

K-Meta does kill bacteria, but it doesn't do that forever. For example, many brewers (wine or mead at least) will add k-meta to their must to kill anything in there. Obviously, that creates an environment you wouldn't want to pitch yeast into immediately. Brewers will wait about 2 days before pitching their yeast after treating the must, and the k-meta does not kill the yeast. So, if your must has been sitting there a few days (3+) after dosing k-meta, then there is a chance for malolactic bacteria to creep in there. If you dose k-sorb with malolactic bacteria fermenting, you will get geranium aromas that aren't real good. This is why I dose k-meta, and then k-sorb within 24 hours when stabilizing. K-meta does have that kill factor, but not forever. It does help protect against oxidation as well.
I've been using those lower dose k-sorb guidelines for 4 years. I've only ever dosed k-sorb once. Too much can add a slight celery flavor from what I've heard. I typically dose k-meta whenever I rack. Too much k-meta can also be a bad thing as it can hurt oak integration. I'm not sure how much is too much though. I usually age long enough and after any tweaks (back-sweetening, etc.) to feel confident the mead is stable. It makes for a bit longer process (or day if you have a lot of mead), but I usually filter and bottle the same day as that means I only dose k-meta once instead of once at filtering and again when bottling --> filter into a container with the k-meta, then bottle from that container. I suppose you don't have to dose k-meta at all. It's just more of an insurance policy against critters, oxidation, and bottle bombs.
Hopefully that explains where I'm coming from a bit more. Feel free to reach out if you want to discuss.

 

[MFSHEPARD]

Thank you both.
4give, that makes sense, you explained that very clearly.
MightyMosin, great breakdown. The pH is 3.4 so I assume I can stay in the mid to lower end of the sorbate dosage. as an experiment I added 0.02g sorbate to 1 ounce of distilled water then added this to 3 oz of cyser (that small an amount has the potential for a lot of error but would correlate to .66g/gal) I saw no precipitation. For grins before discarding this I added a pinch or sorbate and got the same reaction as last time, a vigorous chemical reaction (rolling and bubbling similar to a very active yeast starter) resulting in a large amount of precipitate.
Somethig I read in one of the links you listed "Before adding potassium sorbate, be sure that the wine is crystal clear and has been racked off the lees. " I thought most people racked from the primary onto K-meta/K-sorb into the secondary, then maybe additional racking until clear, and you only add K-sorbate once.