Origins of life

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BAH, you were posting while I was researching and typing!

I will agree that the chapter 1 saying he created man and woman at once is up for debate, but it's not just my interpretation, I have heard serious theologians interpret this the same way.

And regardless of whether chapter 1 says man and woman at once, or doesn't really specify - it does totally say animals first, and chapter 2 does say man first, animals second.

EDIT: after reading it again I think it's pretty clear. While I'll agree it doesn't clearly say they were created at once, it does say they were both created on the same day. (Note as well that chapter 2 seems to be saying that man, animals and woman were created after the whole 6 day thing, not during. That could be me missunderstanding something though.)

This is a huge part of why I respect Judaism, those don't line up so they decided not to toss one as heretical, but to include both and let people think about it for themselves!
 
BAH, you were posting while I was researching and typing!

I will agree that the chapter 1 saying he created man and woman at once is up for debate, but it's not just my interpretation, I have heard serious theologians interpret this the same way.

And regardless of whether chapter 1 says man and woman at once, or doesn't really specify - it does totally say animals first, and chapter 2 does say man first, animals second.

EDIT: after reading it again I think it's pretty clear. While I'll agree it doesn't clearly say they were created at once, it does say they were both created on the same day. (Note as well that chapter 2 seems to be saying that man, animals and woman were created after the whole 6 day thing, not during. That could be me missunderstanding something though.)

This is a huge part of why I respect Judaism, those don't line up so they decided not to toss one as heretical, but to include both and let people think about it for themselves!

I think these were partly addressed in posts #188 and #192.

#188 discussed the meaning of the word "yohm" translated "day". Adam and eve were made on the same creative "day", but that does not mean they had to be created at the same time, since these creative days were very long periods of time, as scientific studies allude to in regards to the age of the earth and the life upon it.

In response to your lengthy post before this one, In #192 I explained how the two creative accounts were written from different perspectives, one in chronological order, the other in order of topical importance. The two would not be written in the same order.
 
Ok, I'll buy that bit about that day being really long so man and woman not necessarily made at once, but dispite the second one being in order of importance (I've never heard that view on it, but I'm not educated enough to dispute it) it does seem to very clearly state that God made man, then decided he shouldn't be alone, so made animals, then because the animals weren't right made woman.

If it is supposed to be in order of importance in CH2 then that's even harsher on women!

I'd think that it's not impossible to interpret the whole thing simply as a story to express a point, not necessarily meant to be the literal order of anything, or even a true story necessarily (I know plenty of Christians who completely think that Genesis isn't meant to be literal in any way shape or form, just a moral teaching story).

Hmmm. I must think and research more.
 
Ok, I'll buy that bit about that day being really long so man and woman not necessarily made at once, but dispite the second one being in order of importance (I've never heard that view on it, but I'm not educated enough to dispute it) it does seem to very clearly state that God made man, then decided he shouldn't be alone, so made animals, then because the animals weren't right made woman.

If it is supposed to be in order of importance in CH2 then that's even harsher on women!

I'd think that it's not impossible to interpret the whole thing simply as a story to express a point, not necessarily meant to be the literal order of anything, or even a true story necessarily (I know plenty of Christians who completely think that Genesis isn't meant to be literal in any way shape or form, just a moral teaching story).

Hmmm. I must think and research more.

I'm having a hard time seeing why God couldn't have intended to make woman all along. If god created all the other creatures with male and female counterparts to reproduce, is it that hard to believe that he didn't originally intend to do the same for Adam? (Food for thought: I doubt adam was created without genitals. If creating a woman was not part of God's purpose when he designed Adam, why give Adam reproductive organs?)

This harshness torward women has come up more than once. Could you explain what you find harsh about it?
 
Absolutely he could have planned to make women all along, I wouldn't dissagree with that. My concern is that myself (and many scholars) still find ch1 and 2 to be contradictory, as the wording of ch2 really does seem pretty clear about animals being created after man (unless we start getting really creative and imagining that that line where God's thinking about Adam being alone and then creating animals to fix this was supposed to be back in time before he created man, and it was written the way it was in ch2 to deliberately confuse people!).

The question I've heard many times is, if men and women were to be equals then why is women presented in this chapter as secondary (tertiary actually)?

This isn't my original opinion, this is something I picked up on and then later agreed with in a class on Judaism. Many people believe that CH1 was written to show men and women as equals, and that CH2 was written to show men as the more important. (Not saying that interpretation is right, just saying it's a common one, not just my idea).

The harsh thing is that not just due to the order of creation (especially if you're right about ch2 being more about "order of topical importance", unless by topical you have something in mind that I'm missing) but the whole Adam and Eve apple story, women have been really considered second class humans (or perhaps I should say my opinion here rather than keep going from the point of view of the Christians that taught me this idea - I don't think those stories originally caused this, I think that women already being considered less important by the men writing the Bible is why they wrote the story that way, but that's another argument. Genesis was certainly used to justify the subjugation of women later on in history).

Genesis was one of the first parts of the Bible I read (makes sense, being the beginning!), right from being about 14 years old (nobody gave me the Bible, I just found one and started reading) and though it may be due to my own interpretation of it, I was pretty shocked to read that woman and man wouldn't have been created at once, even as a kid it upset me a little. (edit: also, I didn't just hear the woman after man story when I was 14, that's just when I read it. I heard it when I was much younger, and iit bugged me then too!)

Please let me know if I start stepping on toes or coming off as agressive or rude. While I may not agree with your interpretations exactly, I am considering them and will consider to, and I always want to hear new interpretations (new to me anyways!). ;D
 
After reading both ch1 and 2 again, what is it linguistically that makes you and others think that ch2 is not supposed to be chronological but ch1 is? The only difference I see is that ch2 starts with God having finished day 7, and the following line which suggest that we're going back into the first 6 days for more details. Other than that both start every new line (once ch2 gets into the "recapping") the same way with "and" rather than something like "and then".

So once ch2 gets gets to line 5 and we're back into it talking about the 6 days again (though in line 4 it says these generations it's about to discuss took place on the same "day" as the creation of the earth and the heavens, which again contradicts ch1, though I guess we've already agreed that "day" means a totally random amount of time!) it looks to me that the generations are recited in order, as they are presented in exactly the same language style as ch1, and ch1 we're agreeing is supposed to be in order.

Wait, unless what's making you draw the conclusion that ch2 is non-chronological is that it stops saying what day stuff was done on?

I'm actually just trying to understand at this point, not trying to really debate anymore. I can get back to actually debating once I am better educated on this (not just by you in the interpretation you're putting forth, but also I need to go research other interpretations, including the one that I was defending that I was taught by a Christian teacher in college).
 
I should clarify too, the person that taught me initially that ch1 and 2 contradict each other explicitly was not just some academic. He was previously a Minister in the United Church of Canada (and also previously an MP in the provincial government, and an elected member of the gov of Vancouver at the time he was teaching. Those aren't really important here though!).
 
Absolutely he could have planned to make women all along, I wouldn't dissagree with that. My concern is that myself (and many scholars) still find ch1 and 2 to be contradictory, as the wording of ch2 really does seem pretty clear about animals being created after man (unless we start getting really creative and imagining that that line where God's thinking about Adam being alone and then creating animals to fix this was supposed to be back in time before he created man, and it was written the way it was in ch2 to deliberately confuse people!).

The question I've heard many times is, if men and women were to be equals then why is women presented in this chapter as secondary (tertiary actually)?

This isn't my original opinion, this is something I picked up on and then later agreed with in a class on Judaism. Many people believe that CH1 was written to show men and women as equals, and that CH2 was written to show men as the more important. (Not saying that interpretation is right, just saying it's a common one, not just my idea).

The harsh thing is that not just due to the order of creation (especially if you're right about ch2 being more about "order of topical importance", unless by topical you have something in mind that I'm missing) but the whole Adam and Eve apple story, women have been really considered second class humans (or perhaps I should say my opinion here rather than keep going from the point of view of the Christians that taught me this idea - I don't think those stories originally caused this, I think that women already being considered less important by the men writing the Bible is why they wrote the story that way, but that's another argument. Genesis was certainly used to justify the subjugation of women later on in history).

Genesis was one of the first parts of the Bible I read (makes sense, being the beginning!), right from being about 14 years old (nobody gave me the Bible, I just found one and started reading) and though it may be due to my own interpretation of it, I was pretty shocked to read that woman and man wouldn't have been created at once, even as a kid it upset me a little. (edit: also, I didn't just hear the woman after man story when I was 14, that's just when I read it. I heard it when I was much younger, and iit bugged me then too!)

Please let me know if I start stepping on toes or coming off as agressive or rude. While I may not agree with your interpretations exactly, I am considering them and will consider to, and I always want to hear new interpretations (new to me anyways!). ;D

Not aggressive or rude at all, you're questioning and clearly interested in learning (as am I, it seems like there's SO much I still have to learn) and that can only be viewed as a very good thing.

Women have undoubtedly had it very rough for much of human history, being treated as lesser people. And yes, the Bible has been twisted to justify a lot of terrible things in history, beyond the mistreatment of women.

It's important to note that mistreatment of women after the original pair sinned was predicted. In Genesis 3:16 we read: "and your craving will be for your husband, and he will dominate you."

However, Jesus set the example in proper treatment of women. Consider the account at John 4:4-9, 27. Jesus approached a well hot, tired and thirsty. A Samaritan woman approached to draw some water. Jesus asked her for a drink. In amazement, she asked "How is it that you, despite being a Jew, ask me for a drink, when I am a Samaritan woman?" Later, when his disciples returned from buying food, they were taken aback, wondering why Jesus was "speaking with a woman."

The woman's question and the disciple's concern was two-fold. She was a Samaritan, and Jews had no dealings with Samaritans. (John 8:48) However, at that time, rabbinic tradition discouraged men from talking to women in public. Yet Jesus still openly preached to this sincere woman, even revealing that he was the messiah to her. (John 4:25,26) Jesus thus showed that he would not be bound by unscriptural traditions, including those that degraded women. (Mark 7:9-13) By what Jesus did and what he taught, he showed that women should be treated with honor and respect.

In the interest of keeping this from becoming a massive post, I will reference one more example. Husbands are told to assign their wives honor in 1 Peter 3:7. Peter used a form of the same word for "honor" at 2 Peter 1:17. There he said with reference to Jesus' transfiguration: "“He received from God the Father honor and glory, when words such as these were borne to him by the magnificent glory: ‘This is my son, my beloved, whom I myself have approved.’"

At Jesus' transfiguration, God honored his son by expressing his approval of Jesus, and God did so in the hearing of others. (Matthew 17:1-5) The man who honors his wife doesn't humiliate or downgrade her. Rather, he demonstrates by his words and deeds, in public and private, that he esteems her.

I could go on and on, but there are many scriptures that make it clear that although women have their place in God's arrangement, as do men, they are to be given honor and respect.
 
After reading both ch1 and 2 again, what is it linguistically that makes you and others think that ch2 is not supposed to be chronological but ch1 is? The only difference I see is that ch2 starts with God having finished day 7, and the following line which suggest that we're going back into the first 6 days for more details. Other than that both start every new line (once ch2 gets into the "recapping") the same way with "and" rather than something like "and then".

So once ch2 gets gets to line 5 and we're back into it talking about the 6 days again (though in line 4 it says these generations it's about to discuss took place on the same "day" as the creation of the earth and the heavens, which again contradicts ch1, though I guess we've already agreed that "day" means a totally random amount of time!) it looks to me that the generations are recited in order, as they are presented in exactly the same language style as ch1, and ch1 we're agreeing is supposed to be in order.

Wait, unless what's making you draw the conclusion that ch2 is non-chronological is that it stops saying what day stuff was done on?

I'm actually just trying to understand at this point, not trying to really debate anymore. I can get back to actually debating once I am better educated on this (not just by you in the interpretation you're putting forth, but also I need to go research other interpretations, including the one that I was defending that I was taught by a Christian teacher in college).

Just a side note, but the scriptures never actually say that day 7 ended. God is still at rest from his creative works ;)

Well, we have the two creation accounts. One from Genesis 1:1 to 2:4. The other from Genesis 2:5-4:26. Could some confusion perhaps be coming from trying to seperate it perfectly by chapter?
 
(It is not my intention to totally dominate this thread, by the way... If this would be more appropriate to discuss in PMs, that's totally fine.)
 
There doesn't need to be any "new" organizing factor that that we haven't discovered beyond random chance and atomic bonding. That's my understanding anyways, and I've had great discussions with biologists and chemists who say this is totally a very natural process. I haven't met/read a non-fringe scientist who thought we were missing a piece that would make the formation of life possible according to the laws of physics. We don't know HOW it happened yet (we may never!) but all the mainstream scientists (including creationists) I've ever heard of say that there's no violation of physics happening here.

I'm not so sure about this. Though it may well be described by chemistry and biology, which hold their basis in physics. The fashion in which life "creates order" within itself, is very unlike anything else described by physics, and you cannot describe life directly through current physics. So even if it doesn't "violate" the concepts of thermodynamics, that's really only because the concepts have been made vague enough not to be violated. One could easily imagine more narrow laws, which would work for everything else, but not for life.

So, I think there is certainly room for a potentially better description here.

Personally I believe there is a "life force" and that it has the capability of affecting the odds of the quantum wave equation, through "will". Not by a lot though (but enough for it to with time be able to build something significant). But I also think that thing in a sense is like any natural law, as in that it will act everywhere and succeed in creating order wherever the circumstances are right.
 
Heaven or afterlife: a 'fairy story'

This article about British theoretical physicist Stephen Hawking just appeared in today's USAtoday. He is a well-regarded scientist and perhaps THE strongest proponent of the "purely scientific" view of the universe (or at least the poster child for that view).

Below are a few passages from the article and I merely present this as "food for thought" and without judgement:

British theoretical physicist Stephen Hawking says he rejects the idea of heaven or an afterlife, calling the belief a "fairy story" for people afraid of dying.

"I regard the brain as a computer which will stop working when its components fail. There is no heaven or afterlife for broken down computers; that is a fairy story for people afraid of the dark," he added.

The observations by Hawking, a theoretical physicist and cosmologist who won the Presidential Medal of Freedom, go beyond those discussed in his 2010 book, The Grand Design, in which he asserts that there is no need for a creator to explain the existence of the universe, the newspaper says.
 
13 And the name of the second river is Gihon: the same is it that compasseth the whole land of Ethiopia. Totally unrelated, is this a weird translation? Because Ethiopia is thought to be the cradle now, but I do NOT remember mention of Ethiopia in the Bible... am I losing my mind?...


19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof. Here you go, animals created second.

Newer translations (there's that ugly word again) like the NIV and New American Standard refer to the River Gihon flowing around the land of Kush (Cush) which would refer to the Sudan if that makes any difference.

Speaking of translation I like the site Biblegateway.com because you can select a chapter or verse and switch between numerous translations (including non-English) to see the differences. I find that illuminating.

As for the order of creation, there is some wiggle room in Genesis 2. This is because it says "and brought them unto Adam." If he created animals prior to Adam this statement would still be true - out of the ground he formed them, and brought them to Adam. He did create them, and later (after creating Adam), when he wanted to create a helper for Adam he brought each of them to Adam and found that none would do, so he created Woman. Yes, that may be a bit of a stretch, but you could interpret it that way.

Still, even if there is consistency here, the Bible is full of other inconsistencies. The Gospels are a prime example. That doesn't mean it isn't a sacred work, just that humans have been involved with compiling it. Perhaps the inconsistencies are there intentionally - to force you to read it carefully, and to contemplate it with purpose. Perhaps the focused effort to understand and the desire to learn are part of the process to reach salvation (or to become what it is we are meant to be).


(It is not my intention to totally dominate this thread, by the way... If this would be more appropriate to discuss in PMs, that's totally fine.)

No, I think open discussion and sharing of thought on a topic like this is valuable.
 
2:13 And the name of the second river is Gihon: the same is it that compasseth the whole land of Ethiopia. Totally unrelated, is this a weird translation? Because Ethiopia is thought to be the cradle now, but I do NOT remember mention of Ethiopia in the Bible... am I losing my mind?

Congratulations, AToE. You inspired me to pick up a bible for the first time in about 20 years. :eek: I wanted to see if mine said something other than Ethiopia and also wanted to check on something else, which I'll get to in a minute...

In Gen 2:13 mine refers to Cush, with a note at the bottom, "Cush (of Mespopotamia), or Sudan"

What I wanted to look at additionally is based on this one:


1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Mine (Good News Bible, Today's English Version, first published 1976, authorized by the Canadian Conference of Catholic Bishops May 1986) reads thusly:

GEN 1:26 Then God said, "And now we will make Human Beings; they will be like us and resemble us. They will have power over the fish, the birds, and all animals, domestic and wild, large and small."

I wanted to see if both were using the plural form for this passage. Does this mean that the God in Genesis one of many, or does He use the "royal We", since that seems consistent across more than one translation?

The one thing I learned from my Catholic religion classes is that the bible was written by men, who are not infallible, and it was translated by men, who are not infallible.

On a tangential subject,

I don't think those stories originally caused this, I think that women already being considered less important by the men writing the Bible is why they wrote the story that way, but that's another argument. Genesis was certainly used to justify the subjugation of women later on in history

A lot of things in the bible have been used to subjugate a lot of people over the years based on people's definitions (here we go with language again!). Even the American "All men are born equal" didn't include women or people other than "civilized" caucasions at the time. Since we're not working with the ORIGINAL document and since there have been many times in history where the people were kept in the dark about what's actually IN the bible (ie, masses held in latin when the priest is the only one who spoke the language so the populace would remanin ignorant and have to trust the priest's word on what's actually in there), my suspicion is also that the original transcription and subsequent translations have been coloured by the views of the time and have perpetuated them. Another reason why I prefer my religions unorganized :), my own take on the bible is that it's a collection of lessons and instructions to be taken with a grain of salt. Although Medsen phrases it far more nicely :)


 
Maybe Chapter 2 of Genesis only speaks of Eden. Maybe chapter 1 talks of the whole of the earth. Then God Created a Garden called Eden. Like any Farmer knows, you must Till the earth asunder to plant a new crop. So here's my take.

God Made the earth, he was happy. He created animals and put them all around, Dinosaurs and then the Large Mammals and sea creatures. Then he made some Homo Neanderthalensis', Homo Erectus' and put them around here and there. (Chapter 1 mentions Man, but not Adam)

Then God decides to make the "Chosen" People. He wants to set them aside from the rest of the "Men" he has created so he wipes out a section of earth, tills the ground so to speak and then creates Eden. He creates a new Man, Homo Sapiens and places him in this new Garden. And gave him some trees and plants to eat off of. Then God realized that this new man was needing some help with the maintenance of the garden so he gave him some helpers. Now God knows that a Woolly Mammoth would trample the garden something fierce, so he creates some new animals trying to find ones that will help this new Man. So he makes some news ones, smaller creatures that are not as much a threat to this New Man and his Garden, Cows, Horses, Smaller Lions, Smaller Tigers and Smaller Bears, Bees and whatnot. I believe that the Domesticated Canine was the last one, as God was really close on the perfect helper for man with Dogs. But Dogs have no thumbs, so God Made Woman. (over simplified, I know)

All of this fits perfectly with Darwinism and with the scientific knowledge of Home Neanderthal and Homo Erectus. Homo Neanderthals and Homo Erectus were eventually pushed out of existence, and a gentle nudge by God to ensure the success of his "Chosen" Homo Sapiens.

Of course it wasn't that long that the Chosen were evicted, out of the garden, and then pushed out into the rest of the world. Also helping with the down fall of the other Proto Humans that God had created. They were pushed out together, hand in hand, Man and Woman. They left as equals, both naked and both very much afraid.

As both a curious Human and a Catholic, I try to see what is taught to me by the Clergy and then interpret what I read in the Scientific Journals. It all matches up in my mind..

Love the discussion..;D
 
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Then God decides to make the "Chosen" People. He wants to set them aside from the rest of the "Men" he has created so he wipes out a section of earth, tills the ground so to speak and then creates Eden. He creates a new Man, Homo Sapiens and places him in this new Garden. And gave him some trees and plants to eat off of. Then God realized that this new man was needing some help with the maintenance of the garden so he gave him some helpers. Now God knows that a Woolly Mammoth would trample the garden something fierce, so he creates some new animals trying to find ones that will help this new Man. So he makes some news ones, smaller creatures that are not as much a threat to this New Man and his Garden, Cows, Horses, Smaller Lions, Smaller Tigers and Smaller Bears, Bees and whatnot. I believe that the Domesticated Canine was the last one, as God was really close on the perfect helper for man with Dogs. But Dogs have no thumbs, so God Made Woman. (over simplified, I know)

All of this fits perfectly with Darwinism and with the scientific knowledge of Home Neanderthal and Homo Erectus. Homo Neanderthals and Homo Erectus were eventually pushed out of existence, and a gentle nudge by God to ensure the success of his "Chosen" Homo Sapiens.

Of course it wasn't that long that the Chosen were evicted, out of the garden, and then pushed out into the rest of the world. Also helping with the down fall of the other Proto Humans that God had created. They were pushed out together, hand in hand, Man and Woman. They left as equals, both naked and both very much afraid.

As both a curious Human and a Catholic, I try to see what is taught to me by the Clergy and then interpret what I read in the Scientific Journals. It all matches up in my mind..

Love the discussion..;D

That's awesome, sums it up neatly and humourously! ;D
 
Thanks everyone for a bunch of different (and very good) explanations of the Biblical Genesis. I certainly am far from convinced on a couple details here and there, but I know one hell of a lot more now than I did before.

Can I offer what's always been my take on the Garden of Eden story? Bear in mind, this is heretical to the max, BUT if I were Jewish or Christian today, with modern knowledge at my disposal, this is how I would interpret the story of Adam and Eve (I didn't just come up with this now either, I've been running it past religious people for years. Not exactly well received so far!):

----

There was no literal garden. The Garden simply represents a "time" (rather than a place per say) of innocence for humanity. During our evolution into what we now call human, eventually we would have reached a point at which we were able to comprehend true morality and ethics. Before this point, when we were more "animal" we would have had a totally perfect relationship with God (like Adam and Eve before the apple) because until you understand right and wrong you cannot have sin.

At this point, which is represented in the story by the humans considering sinning by eating the apple (which probably would have occured at different times for each human, and I think still continues today even, every child as they grow up will have their own apples to test them), some humans would have started sinning (probably all of them, pretty quickly too).

At this point they no longer had a perfect relationship with God, so they are out of the garden, that time of innocence is over (for the species as a whole anyways).

----

Here's why I like this interpretation, it's because it's got a positive message. Most Christians I talk to look upon the "fall" as a purely negative thing, we lost our perfect relationship with God.

But is it even remotely possible to have free will and live a totally perfect life? I think not!

So I look at getting booted out of the Garden as a positive thing, this isn't just us losing that relationship, it was God granting free will itself upon humanity. Yes, our lives will be hard and without perfect communion with God, but once we die (assuming we go to heaven) that will be restored, so that's fine.

If we were perfect and had a perfect relationship with God, what would even be the point of us existing on Earth? We wouldn't have true free will, and I don't think it would really serve any purpose, why not just create our souls right in heaven and get it over with?

So yes, I don't look upon this as a negative story, all about us falling from grace. I look at this story as being about being gifted free will - because we'd have to chose, free will or perfection, it's not realistically possible to have both and remain what a human is.

Like I said, wee bit heretical...
 
I don't know, Alan. Perhaps a wee bit heretical, but darned near perfectly aligned with my take on the Genesis parable. (Apologies to the Biblical literalists - my studies have led me to the conclusion that the whole Garden of Eden story is apocryphal rather than canonical, but still a valuable teaching aid.) And my interpretation was honed during many discussions in that comparative religions class that I took so many years ago. Turns out that similar "self-awareness begets informed free choice, but that in turn begets responsibility" stories are found throughout all major religions' teachings.

Are you sure you're not ever "tempted" by the thought that there might be a creator out there? ;)
 
I don't know, Alan. Perhaps a wee bit heretical, but darned near perfectly aligned with my take on the Genesis parable. (Apologies to the Biblical literalists - my studies have led me to the conclusion that the whole Garden of Eden story is apocryphal rather than canonical, but still a valuable teaching aid.) And my interpretation was honed during many discussions in that comparative religions class that I took so many years ago. Turns out that similar "self-awareness begets informed free choice, but that in turn begets responsibility" stories are found throughout all major religions' teachings.

Are you sure you're not ever "tempted" by the thought that there might be a creator out there? ;)

Ha, nope! But I really love religion (not going to lie, I love it as a thought exercise and "works of art" moreso than in practice, in practice it gets very dangerous). I think most atheists and even agnostics regard religion as primitive escapism and poor attempts to understand the universe, and also as a tool for controlling the masses.

That's not how I see it. Religions were created by the absolute best of the best with whatever knowledge they had at the time (and make no mistake, these "best of the best" are not just "for that time", these are people on par with the greatest minds of today) and were extremely carefully thought out. They were social engineering tools to be sure, but they were also deep deep journeys into understanding the human mind.


Religions shape how entire cultures think. The Dharmic religions encourage/teach thought processes that are extremely difficult for the western mind to even grasp (hint: a buddhist or hindu might have a much easier time understanding quantum physics and relativity, because their religions involve practicing wrapping your mind around something "impossible". All western religion has that's similar is the trinity and that time started when god created the universe, so there "was no before", but the Dharmics have thousands of Koans and riddles and stories to force the mind to work on these concepts constantly).

So while I do regard religions as incorrect in regards to all supernatural claims and often specific claims about the universe (such as the earth being 6K years old), the philosophy contained within the stories is invaluable, and in many cases better than anything we're capable of coming up with today.
 
Very fascinating viewpoints to be sure! Very cool to get everyones viewpoints on things. I'd be happy to share a couple Bible verses that explain my belief in the literal interpretation of Genesis, when I'm not stuck at work...