I like
Creator Christ and Holy Ghost...
because I'm into inclusive language...
but you already knew that.
Creator Christ and Holy Ghost...
because I'm into inclusive language...
but you already knew that.
Origins of life
- Thread starter Medsen Fey
- Start date
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Sorry, I'm falling behind here, between work and recording a band after work I've had so little time! Lots of interesting stuff here, which I fully plan on responding to soon!
I'm happy when people find scriptural evidence for people other than Christians getting into heaven (there's lots more evidence actually, this exact subject is what I wrote my final paper on in one class I took), because while I fully respect people's right to their beliefs, the simple truth is some beliefs are more dangerous than others, and in my very personal opinion, the idea that only Christians go to heaven is one of those very dangerous concepts.
Plus it just doesn't make sense to me. Look at it this way - we know that before the time of Christ God wasn't just letting Jewish people into heaven (they didn't have quite the same concept of heaven anyways, but that's another topic), both scripture and the nearly unanimous beliefs of modern (and historical) Jews show that Judaism was not a religion anyone needed to convert to (or even should convert to) to be on God's good side - all that was required was to be righteous (basically anyways, there's something about also not ripping a limb off a living animal and eating it raw too... kinda strange) and off to heaven you go.
This is why the idea that only Christians get into heaven really doesn't work for me. Because the whole point of Jesus was to save people's souls and get them into heaven, but if only Christians get into heaven then he actually acheived the exact opposite (before him, everybody good gets into heaven. After him, the vast majority of people on the planet, probably 99.99999% start going to hell automatically, over a couple thousand years that % goes up to around 50%, but still, nowhere near as good as before Jesus came, when 100% of righteous people went to heaven).
Which makes no sense, why would God suddenly completely change the rulles for getting into heaven, and only tell people in one tiny area about it?
UNLESS someone wants to try to argue that only Jews went to heaven in the first place, but good luck, I've got scriptural evidence, testimony from as many Rabbis as I can look up, and a gigantic tub of logic to finish it off with. ;D
At this point I'm really crossing my fingers that that's not offensive, but the whole exclusivism thing is a hobby of mine to debate. I think the exclusivist branches of Christianity would be improved by ditching the exclusivism like other branches have done, though I know advice from an atheist on improving a religion isn't exactly going to be smiled upon.
I'm happy when people find scriptural evidence for people other than Christians getting into heaven (there's lots more evidence actually, this exact subject is what I wrote my final paper on in one class I took), because while I fully respect people's right to their beliefs, the simple truth is some beliefs are more dangerous than others, and in my very personal opinion, the idea that only Christians go to heaven is one of those very dangerous concepts.
Plus it just doesn't make sense to me. Look at it this way - we know that before the time of Christ God wasn't just letting Jewish people into heaven (they didn't have quite the same concept of heaven anyways, but that's another topic), both scripture and the nearly unanimous beliefs of modern (and historical) Jews show that Judaism was not a religion anyone needed to convert to (or even should convert to) to be on God's good side - all that was required was to be righteous (basically anyways, there's something about also not ripping a limb off a living animal and eating it raw too... kinda strange) and off to heaven you go.
This is why the idea that only Christians get into heaven really doesn't work for me. Because the whole point of Jesus was to save people's souls and get them into heaven, but if only Christians get into heaven then he actually acheived the exact opposite (before him, everybody good gets into heaven. After him, the vast majority of people on the planet, probably 99.99999% start going to hell automatically, over a couple thousand years that % goes up to around 50%, but still, nowhere near as good as before Jesus came, when 100% of righteous people went to heaven).
Which makes no sense, why would God suddenly completely change the rulles for getting into heaven, and only tell people in one tiny area about it?
UNLESS someone wants to try to argue that only Jews went to heaven in the first place, but good luck, I've got scriptural evidence, testimony from as many Rabbis as I can look up, and a gigantic tub of logic to finish it off with. ;D
At this point I'm really crossing my fingers that that's not offensive, but the whole exclusivism thing is a hobby of mine to debate. I think the exclusivist branches of Christianity would be improved by ditching the exclusivism like other branches have done, though I know advice from an atheist on improving a religion isn't exactly going to be smiled upon.
Well, if you go with the one and the same theory:
Jesus and God are the same, yet Jesus is also God who is also his father.
God also created all humans and therefore created Mary
therefore Jesus is his own grandpa!
I'll leave it at that because from there it gets even more blasphemous and I'm trying to be nice
I would tend to agree. Take it a step further as I have been told by certain Christian sects, that If you were never taught Christianity or given the opportunity to learn it, then God would be forgiving since you never had the chance to be saved.
In the same breath they send missionaries all over the world. It becomes a paradox then that people who would have been given a chance by God having never heard the word of Christ, are now condemned thanks to missionaries.
...just a thought
There are also lots of Christians who go further, they don't just believe that people who haven't had a chance to be Christian get into heaven, but that even people who have had a chance but are of another faith still get in based on their merit and worship of God under a different faith. I've also met a rare few who believe even someone like myself would get in, but that's a little less common!
Mormons and Catholics are two who believe in earthly works. That is you can be of another faith and so long as you lived in a holy fashion you are set.
Mormons go further to say that as long as someone lived properly within the edicts of their society they will have the opportunity to go to the highest level of heaven. This means the cannibal who never heard of Christ, can still be a cannibal. From the time he dies until the second coming of Christ he is taught about the LDS church, then at the second coming so long as he accepts Christ and the church he's golden.
Personally, having been to many Mormon services, I find the concept of spending the next few eons waiting for the apocalypse in Mormon studies to be worse than going to hell.
I was once in a 2 hour discussion with a Methodist Minister concerning the topic of who gets into Heaven. It started off with him saying the my Dog wasn't going into heaven and then progressed to an young boy in Africa. He believed that if you were not "Saved" then you not be allowed into heaven.
First, I grew up Southern Baptist and then converting to Catholicism when I was 19. I have a come to believe that Anyone can get to heaven, if they have lived their lives thinking of their fellow man. A little boy in the wilds of Africa who dies and is never exposed to any Christian belief can get to heaven, if he was a "good" person. You can not tell me that god put that little boy on this planet only to condemn him to a eternal life in hell.
Same with my Dog, he's one of the most loving and loyal creatures I have ever met. He gives me unconditional love. He dreams at night and has likes and dislikes. He doesn't like thunderstorms, they scare him, but he loves Fireworks. He knows the difference because of the Humans he's around. He looks forward to rides in the Jeep and will try to get me to the garage and then the Jeep to tell me he wants to go for a ride.
I finally told this Minister.."Matter of Fact, if a creature like my Pup can't get into Heaven, I don't know if I want to go to a place like that."
Jet Li has a great philosophy of religions, he mentions it in the extra's of Fearless. I quote this from his Website..I hope he doesn't mind, as he could kick the living poop outta me...
"Is there a religion that is superior morally and spiritually with respect to all others? I strongly believe the answer is no. Sure, religions differ from one another in their outward trappings, in the Gods their followers worship, in the customs and rituals which their practitioners observe. But upon closer inspection, the underlying heart and central principle in every religion is the same. Every religion boils down to love, to a respect for all living things, to choosing peace over violence as a means of resolving a conflict. The essence is universal; it is only the means to the end that varies......Only through a lifestyle of generosity, kindness, and love, and a positive contribution to humankind can one consider oneself a true practitioner of any religion."
I like that, if you practice the "Golden Rule" and care for all creatures, then you have a key to get into heaven...
First, I grew up Southern Baptist and then converting to Catholicism when I was 19. I have a come to believe that Anyone can get to heaven, if they have lived their lives thinking of their fellow man. A little boy in the wilds of Africa who dies and is never exposed to any Christian belief can get to heaven, if he was a "good" person. You can not tell me that god put that little boy on this planet only to condemn him to a eternal life in hell.
Same with my Dog, he's one of the most loving and loyal creatures I have ever met. He gives me unconditional love. He dreams at night and has likes and dislikes. He doesn't like thunderstorms, they scare him, but he loves Fireworks. He knows the difference because of the Humans he's around. He looks forward to rides in the Jeep and will try to get me to the garage and then the Jeep to tell me he wants to go for a ride.
I finally told this Minister.."Matter of Fact, if a creature like my Pup can't get into Heaven, I don't know if I want to go to a place like that."
Jet Li has a great philosophy of religions, he mentions it in the extra's of Fearless. I quote this from his Website..I hope he doesn't mind, as he could kick the living poop outta me...
"Is there a religion that is superior morally and spiritually with respect to all others? I strongly believe the answer is no. Sure, religions differ from one another in their outward trappings, in the Gods their followers worship, in the customs and rituals which their practitioners observe. But upon closer inspection, the underlying heart and central principle in every religion is the same. Every religion boils down to love, to a respect for all living things, to choosing peace over violence as a means of resolving a conflict. The essence is universal; it is only the means to the end that varies......Only through a lifestyle of generosity, kindness, and love, and a positive contribution to humankind can one consider oneself a true practitioner of any religion."
I like that, if you practice the "Golden Rule" and care for all creatures, then you have a key to get into heaven...
That's funny, I wasn't going to say anything but since someone else said it first, the heaven a lot of people believe in isn't one I'd like to go to. If for example Mother Teresa had a serious lapse of faith at the time of her death and goes to hell for that, but someone like Hitler could potentially repent, give his heart to Jesus and be saved... don't work for me. Or even a more moderate (and realistic) example, if some of the only moderately OK Christians I know get into heaven, but a very morally good Hindu is burning forever... yikes. If that's your belief that's your belief, but that's got to at least explain some people's reluctance to take up mainstream Christianity (I know lots of Christians don't believe this, but the impression everyone outside the faith gets is that the majority of Christians do very much believe it).
I know my opinion would change after about 15 seconds in hell, but until then I'll stand by that. (Yes it makes it a lot easier for me to have that opinion when I believe in the concept of hell even less than I believe in the concept of a creator)
A great Heathen king named Radbod of Frisia had basically the same thing to say (or so the tales say) . When he went to be baptized he asked the missionaries if he would meet his ancestors in Heaven. They replied, “No, they were not baptized, so they are in Hell.” Radbod replied: “Then I rather spend eternity in Hell with my ancestors than in Heaven with my enemies." (His enemies were the Franks and has already fallen to Christianization.)
On the topic of dogs and such, that's another thing that's always made no sense to me, that they wouldn't have souls. I know many people believe in a fundamental difference between human and animal, but I don't - it's just a matter of degrees to me (lots of degrees, but still). I think the Buddhist belief is actually that the whole cycle of rebirth and soforth towards Nirvana actually applies to all sentient beings and I also don't think they consider themselves capable of deciding what animals are and are not sentient, which is why most hard-core Buddhists are vegitarian, as plants we know darned well don't have minds (unless you're really getting into weird metaphysics or something).
Then you've got Jains, who even consider plant life sacred. They don't eat any plant product that involve the plant dying (so no root veggies or anything) and I think they even wait for fruit to fall off a plant to eat it (not really sure what the point of that is). Historically they did eat dairy, but due to modern farming practices many are now essentially an extreme form of vegan.
I don't want to start a debate about whether animals would have souls if such a thing exists, just wanted to bring up that it's a lotta little stuff like this that added up to Christianity just feeling wrong when I was a very young kid (there was a short window of opportunity from probably the age of 4 through to 7 or 8 when I could have potentially been convinced, but it didn't come close).
Then you've got Jains, who even consider plant life sacred. They don't eat any plant product that involve the plant dying (so no root veggies or anything) and I think they even wait for fruit to fall off a plant to eat it (not really sure what the point of that is). Historically they did eat dairy, but due to modern farming practices many are now essentially an extreme form of vegan.
I don't want to start a debate about whether animals would have souls if such a thing exists, just wanted to bring up that it's a lotta little stuff like this that added up to Christianity just feeling wrong when I was a very young kid (there was a short window of opportunity from probably the age of 4 through to 7 or 8 when I could have potentially been convinced, but it didn't come close).
A good number of examples here for why I take issue with many so-called "Christian" religions. (Not the members, the religions.) A lot of them teach things not found in the Bible, to those things in opposition to what is contained within the Bible, some of which which has bothered a lot of people to the point of rejecting Christianity outright.
Just for the record it wasn't really the things about the version of Christianity I was being taught that made me atheist or anything like that. If I'd had a tendancy to believe in a higher power I definitely never would have been Christian (or probably any religion in particular), but I really never did have that tendancy.
I've always wondered what makes some people religious, some non-religious but still "spiritual" and some atheists, it's not intelligence, that's pretty self evident by how everybody from high geniuses to complete morons seem to be pretty evenly distributed throughout the options... it's not morality, plenty of good atheists and bad believers, and vice versa, doesn't seem to be any correlation whatsoever.
How people are brought up seems to be the single biggest deciding factor. Yes, lots of people lose faith, and % wise maybe the same number gain it, but obviously whatever religion/belief you're born into is the one you're vastly more likely to stay with for your whole life.
BUT, while I admit I'm skeptical that atheists who find faith were the same kind of atheist I am (they all seem to describe always having felt like something was missing, or wrong, which is totally different than me) and vice versa, it does seem to happen.
But why? Some people the more science they learn the more spiritual they become, but for others it (and I assume emotional reasons) seems to lessen their faith, for some people the more they learn about their own religion the more they believe, but for others learning the details of their religion shunts them almost immediately into non-religious (not usually into atheism though from what I've seen).
I don't get it frankly, there's something either very complex and unique happening in all of our minds, or something completely random - a glitch if you will (not saying any belief in particular is a glitch, maybe all of them are, maybe none of them are, maybe just one of them is...).
This is something that's been confusing me to no end since I started thinking about it.
I think all children are born agnostic, they have no clue, no opinion (other than that their parents are more "right" than other people and simply repeating whatever they said). They believe what they're told (without question) until they're able to question things, then they start believing in a higher power or not, a specific religion or not, specific aspects of the religion or not, etc.
--
I actually remember the conversation that I think sealed my fate as an atheist. Please note, this sounds condescending but it's not, it's just a story of how a young child's mind works. Don't take offense to this, I'm not comparing religion to the things in this story (not anymore anyways, when I was a young kid I sure did compare them).
When I was 5 or 6 someone at school told me the Tooth Fairy wasn't real. When I got home, I asked my mom, and she told me the truth. Immediately my mind clicked into gear, I started about the other childhood idols, eventually getting to Santa. She kept telling me the truth, none of them real.
What about Heaven and God and all that was my next thought. (as an even younger kid I didn't really understand this God character, I remember knowing he was in charge of heaven, and asking someone who he was before he died and went there! Then they explained that "he" was the original creator of the universe. Seemed like a weird idea to me, but as a very young kid I had no argument against it).
So my mom told me the truth again, "I don't know. Nobody knows, but lots of people say they do. You have to figure it out yourself whether or not you believe".
And that was the beginning of the end, I can't say for sure I instantly became 100% atheist, because a kid that age I don't think is capable of understanding everything involved, but I certainly never took a religion to be true again, and though right through my teens I had moments of doubt about a creator (not the Christian God though, I never really doubted my beliefs about that again), I'm pretty sure my path was as close to set in stone as anything in the human mind can be.
Weird story... feels kinda ackward to share that.
I've always wondered what makes some people religious, some non-religious but still "spiritual" and some atheists, it's not intelligence, that's pretty self evident by how everybody from high geniuses to complete morons seem to be pretty evenly distributed throughout the options... it's not morality, plenty of good atheists and bad believers, and vice versa, doesn't seem to be any correlation whatsoever.
How people are brought up seems to be the single biggest deciding factor. Yes, lots of people lose faith, and % wise maybe the same number gain it, but obviously whatever religion/belief you're born into is the one you're vastly more likely to stay with for your whole life.
BUT, while I admit I'm skeptical that atheists who find faith were the same kind of atheist I am (they all seem to describe always having felt like something was missing, or wrong, which is totally different than me) and vice versa, it does seem to happen.
But why? Some people the more science they learn the more spiritual they become, but for others it (and I assume emotional reasons) seems to lessen their faith, for some people the more they learn about their own religion the more they believe, but for others learning the details of their religion shunts them almost immediately into non-religious (not usually into atheism though from what I've seen).
I don't get it frankly, there's something either very complex and unique happening in all of our minds, or something completely random - a glitch if you will (not saying any belief in particular is a glitch, maybe all of them are, maybe none of them are, maybe just one of them is...).
This is something that's been confusing me to no end since I started thinking about it.
I think all children are born agnostic, they have no clue, no opinion (other than that their parents are more "right" than other people and simply repeating whatever they said). They believe what they're told (without question) until they're able to question things, then they start believing in a higher power or not, a specific religion or not, specific aspects of the religion or not, etc.
--
I actually remember the conversation that I think sealed my fate as an atheist. Please note, this sounds condescending but it's not, it's just a story of how a young child's mind works. Don't take offense to this, I'm not comparing religion to the things in this story (not anymore anyways, when I was a young kid I sure did compare them).
When I was 5 or 6 someone at school told me the Tooth Fairy wasn't real. When I got home, I asked my mom, and she told me the truth. Immediately my mind clicked into gear, I started about the other childhood idols, eventually getting to Santa. She kept telling me the truth, none of them real.
What about Heaven and God and all that was my next thought. (as an even younger kid I didn't really understand this God character, I remember knowing he was in charge of heaven, and asking someone who he was before he died and went there! Then they explained that "he" was the original creator of the universe. Seemed like a weird idea to me, but as a very young kid I had no argument against it).
So my mom told me the truth again, "I don't know. Nobody knows, but lots of people say they do. You have to figure it out yourself whether or not you believe".
And that was the beginning of the end, I can't say for sure I instantly became 100% atheist, because a kid that age I don't think is capable of understanding everything involved, but I certainly never took a religion to be true again, and though right through my teens I had moments of doubt about a creator (not the Christian God though, I never really doubted my beliefs about that again), I'm pretty sure my path was as close to set in stone as anything in the human mind can be.
Weird story... feels kinda ackward to share that.
Thanks for sharing, I can totally understand how that could happen and I'm kind of surprised it doesn't happen more often, once you start questioning all the lies you've been told once you find out the truth (because really, Santa Claus, Easter Bunny and Tooth Fairy ARE lies we tell children) you start questioning everything else that you can't prove or that doesn't make sense... I suspect the only reason it wasn't similar for me is that I never had a big revelation about the Tooth Fairy, it was a gradual realization on my part...
Sorry but I feel the need to interject this one thought...
IF hell is real and even close to what is described in the Bible, we are not going to be partying with friends there.
We tend to trivialize the seriousness of the lake of fire and brimstone where a rich man would give his entire fortune for just one drop of water. So if it does exist, we should fear it...
IF hell is real and even close to what is described in the Bible, we are not going to be partying with friends there.
We tend to trivialize the seriousness of the lake of fire and brimstone where a rich man would give his entire fortune for just one drop of water. So if it does exist, we should fear it...
Now let me reiterate again that I am a Practicing Roman Catholic. Converted to RC when I was 19. Then I met and married to my cradle Catholic wife. Both of my daughters are Catholic.
Disclaimer: The following is the opinion of me, Mike, and NOT to be considered the doctrine of the Catholic Faith or any other religious belief. Just what is stored in the brain of Mike after 47 years of life on the third planet on the System called Sol.
Last night I saw the movie Thor, and it again brings up the question of Extraterrestrials, much like Star Gate did. Look at it this way. The Ancient Religions, Sumerian, Babylonian, Egyptian, Greek and Roman all were around for centuries. Some of them, Many centuries longer than any Christian religion. Where are they now? What's to say that us Christian's aren't next.
When we look at Extraterrestrial are we being narrow minded or is it the opposite? When we think of Gods are we being narrow minded? If a Physicist, Medical Doctor, Chemist and Mechanical Engineer all got into a Time machine and went back in time to say 1000BC would not they be considered Gods in their Own rights? Could we not see Odin, Zeur, Jupiter, Amun, Jehovah and Allah all being the same Supreme Ruler of some extraterrestrial super humanoid beings? And their Sons or Daughters the one and same as the offspring of our Gods?
On the other hand, maybe God and his Angels have been here the entire time. They let the Humans form their own religious stories and myths that fit the culture and location for each "Tribe". Could we not look at each of the earths Religions as all having the same Supreme being? God being one and the same? Odin, Zeus, Jupiter, Amun, Jehovah, Allah all being one and the same? All of the sons, Thor, Apollo, Saturn, Kohnsu and Jesus being the same Entity?
Like I said, I believe in a Christian God and that his Son died on the cross for us, but I also believe that Christ died to show that EVERYONE has a place in heaven if they are a good person. Hitler, Stalin and all the others like them knew exactly what they did and I believe are in Hell or Hades and paying for it. I don't know what Heaven is, or what it will be like, whether it's a huge city in the center of the universe or a spiritual place where only our souls go, no one knows for sure.
What I do know, is that all of these Religions all have recorded events that happened. And they are all miraculous and all of that points to something Mythical, Magical and Supreme and I am going to keep an open mind until I find out for sure myself.
I don't condemn anyone one that treats me and mine with the respect I give to them. Some of my best friends have been Jewish, Muslim, Christian, Atheism, Scientologist and even Darwinist, and Just like all of you, they are all Good People.
So whatever happens in the end, Look for me, I'll be standing next to the Springer Spaniel Named Pellinore, and playing poker with my 37th Great Grand Father Alfred the Great while Elvis sings with Jimmy Hendrix.
Disclaimer: The following is the opinion of me, Mike, and NOT to be considered the doctrine of the Catholic Faith or any other religious belief. Just what is stored in the brain of Mike after 47 years of life on the third planet on the System called Sol.
Last night I saw the movie Thor, and it again brings up the question of Extraterrestrials, much like Star Gate did. Look at it this way. The Ancient Religions, Sumerian, Babylonian, Egyptian, Greek and Roman all were around for centuries. Some of them, Many centuries longer than any Christian religion. Where are they now? What's to say that us Christian's aren't next.
When we look at Extraterrestrial are we being narrow minded or is it the opposite? When we think of Gods are we being narrow minded? If a Physicist, Medical Doctor, Chemist and Mechanical Engineer all got into a Time machine and went back in time to say 1000BC would not they be considered Gods in their Own rights? Could we not see Odin, Zeur, Jupiter, Amun, Jehovah and Allah all being the same Supreme Ruler of some extraterrestrial super humanoid beings? And their Sons or Daughters the one and same as the offspring of our Gods?
On the other hand, maybe God and his Angels have been here the entire time. They let the Humans form their own religious stories and myths that fit the culture and location for each "Tribe". Could we not look at each of the earths Religions as all having the same Supreme being? God being one and the same? Odin, Zeus, Jupiter, Amun, Jehovah, Allah all being one and the same? All of the sons, Thor, Apollo, Saturn, Kohnsu and Jesus being the same Entity?
Like I said, I believe in a Christian God and that his Son died on the cross for us, but I also believe that Christ died to show that EVERYONE has a place in heaven if they are a good person. Hitler, Stalin and all the others like them knew exactly what they did and I believe are in Hell or Hades and paying for it. I don't know what Heaven is, or what it will be like, whether it's a huge city in the center of the universe or a spiritual place where only our souls go, no one knows for sure.
What I do know, is that all of these Religions all have recorded events that happened. And they are all miraculous and all of that points to something Mythical, Magical and Supreme and I am going to keep an open mind until I find out for sure myself.
I don't condemn anyone one that treats me and mine with the respect I give to them. Some of my best friends have been Jewish, Muslim, Christian, Atheism, Scientologist and even Darwinist, and Just like all of you, they are all Good People.
So whatever happens in the end, Look for me, I'll be standing next to the Springer Spaniel Named Pellinore, and playing poker with my 37th Great Grand Father Alfred the Great while Elvis sings with Jimmy Hendrix.
I can only speak for your physician friend and not all the rest, but if she were not also a "friend of the simple," well versed in botany and the healing herbs, she could bring with her a good understanding of human anatomy and physiology, but little else. 3K years ago she would not have in her tool box many diagnostic and therapeutic options we have today...
See you then, Buddy.
And, no, from a Christian standpoint, it is not "good works" that bring us there, but Grace alone.
How fun. Thanks for sharing this, worth the seven minutes...Love that he raises a horn of mead at the get-go!
Alan, all I can say is that we've missed a truly golden opportunity - wish that I'd thought of this first:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20110518/ts_alt_afp/usreligionanimalsoffbeat_20110518180405
;D
And although I'm agnostic, rather than atheist, I'm sure that I'm not on anyone's Rapture Ready list so this could have paid off well for me, too!
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20110518/ts_alt_afp/usreligionanimalsoffbeat_20110518180405
;D
And although I'm agnostic, rather than atheist, I'm sure that I'm not on anyone's Rapture Ready list so this could have paid off well for me, too!
