Some of those offshoot "cults" did pretty darned well I'd say, looking at the absolutely startling growth and spread of Mormanism.
Origins of life
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Some of those offshoot "cults" did pretty darned well I'd say, looking at the absolutely startling growth and spread of Mormanism.
Confirmed this with my friend yesterday, and they also have a day of judgement where everyone gets sorted out according to how they lived their lives, although she expressed dissatisfaction about one of the same complaints I had about Catholicism's whole confession thing - you can be an axe murderer and as long as you accept God into your heart before you die, you're good, but if you have doubts about God in your last days and are not absolved of them before you die, bad things happen...
Also, she told me that the basic tenet of Islam is moderation... Don't spend your whole life in prayer, you'll get nothing done. Don't spend your entire life at work, you'll have no time for family and prayer. Balance in all things, it seems... She also explained that in the same way as people have done with the Christian bible, people have focused really specifically on some passages of the Koran (Quran) while conveniently forgetting or misinterpreting others. And much like some of the weirder stuff in the bible that is a hand guide for living in the times (like not wearing clothing made of unlike fabrics), there is a prescribed Muslim way to do everything, from bathing to eating to having sex, everything.
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Umm, I have to say that I have talked with Many Priest about confession and absolution of Sin. Esp since I was a convert to Catholicism. It's my understanding that yes, you can commit a serious sin and still get to heaven, but two things must happen.
First you must truly be sorry for the specific sins committed.
Second, you must atone for the same sin.
If I went to confession for stealing something. I am sure that I would be told to return what I stole and to let the person who I stole from know that I stole from him/her. I would then be required to answer for what I had done. Even then, if I didn't feel regret for what I had done, I still wouldn't get to heaven. Even if I did return it, and accepted the punishment for it and even felt sorry and regret for what I had done, I still might have to atone for my sins in Purgatory.
From the Catholic Encyclopedia
Purgatory (Lat., "purgare", to make clean, to purify) in accordance with Catholic teaching is a place or condition of temporal punishment for those who, departing this life in God's grace, are, not entirely free from venial faults, or have not fully paid the satisfaction due to their transgressions.
Now, myself, I have come to grips with the fact that I will have a Chair with my name on it in Purgatory. I am too much of a Man to try to deny that. But even looking back, St. Peter was a man like me. He cussed and even denied Jesus. We are all mortal and full of sin, it's the Atonement and the fact that Jesus gave himself to the cross for us all.
Even if you don't believe in the resurrection of Jesus, I believe it's fact that he did die on the cross and he did so willingly. That alone speaks for a lot.
Hmm. If you had a time machine, would you go to the time of the Crucifixion?
First you must truly be sorry for the specific sins committed.
Second, you must atone for the same sin.
If I went to confession for stealing something. I am sure that I would be told to return what I stole and to let the person who I stole from know that I stole from him/her. I would then be required to answer for what I had done. Even then, if I didn't feel regret for what I had done, I still wouldn't get to heaven. Even if I did return it, and accepted the punishment for it and even felt sorry and regret for what I had done, I still might have to atone for my sins in Purgatory.
From the Catholic Encyclopedia
Purgatory (Lat., "purgare", to make clean, to purify) in accordance with Catholic teaching is a place or condition of temporal punishment for those who, departing this life in God's grace, are, not entirely free from venial faults, or have not fully paid the satisfaction due to their transgressions.
Now, myself, I have come to grips with the fact that I will have a Chair with my name on it in Purgatory. I am too much of a Man to try to deny that. But even looking back, St. Peter was a man like me. He cussed and even denied Jesus. We are all mortal and full of sin, it's the Atonement and the fact that Jesus gave himself to the cross for us all.
Even if you don't believe in the resurrection of Jesus, I believe it's fact that he did die on the cross and he did so willingly. That alone speaks for a lot.
Hmm. If you had a time machine, would you go to the time of the Crucifixion?
Without a doubt. But I'd actually go back a ways before that event, in order to have a chance to talk to the man (assuming I could speak the local vernacular, of course).
I'll concede that the world would be a much better place if everyone were more like Jesus as he was depicted in the bible.
Would I want to go back to that time? Torn. Barring language issues etc... Yes, because if anyone could convince me, it'd be Jesus himself, no because of the way women were treated then, I'm FAR too uppity... and also I do not wish to witness anyone's death, especially by crucifixion (although I suppose if he was willing to die, the least I could do is be willing to witness it)...
Going back to TheAlchemist's question to us nonbelievers, "what is sacred?", life most definitely is, and it bothers me when it is cut short.
No offense taken. I'll be honest and say that I am not emotionally invested in this entire discussion the way some others might be. So without some statement like "Pewter, you are really an .....", I will not be offended. I just interject my comments here and there to challenge people to consider some of the same issues I consider.
I understand and I congratulate you on not being a hypocrite. God knows (pun intended) that there are enough of those in both religious and non-religious circles. My beliefs have gone hot and cold and changed since I became a Christian back in 1st grade.
I understand and accept that. I hope you understand that I am not telling anyone here that they HAVE to do anything. I will say that your heart is in the right place. A lot of people are in life just for themselves and the hell with everyone else. I would pray that that aspect of you never changes.
Please realize that I said "IF" hell exists. I don't say you have to believe in hell but I also do not want anyone here to casually just toss the concept aside. The ancient king that someone quoted had it all wrong because IF hell exists, he will not be there WITH his friends, he will be in hell and his friends will be there also. I am not sure anyone in eternal torment will have any awareness of his surroundings other than pain and agony. I tend to think of it as being in solitary confinement in a jail cell that is on fire...
I do not wish hell on anyone although I think a lot of current Christians do or appear to do so. Instead, I feel like I have a solution that avoids hell that I am willing to discuss with anyone that asks. And like the thief on the cross, you have up until your last breath to change your mind. So I still hold out hope for everyone.. *smile*
Just remember the thief on the cross next to Jesus... he was essentially an axe murderer up until his last few hours...
Also realize that deathbed salvation is NOT like running up to the ticket counter and buying a ticket on the next train to heaven before you breath your last breath. "Oh yeh, I am just about dead, so enroll me in the anti-hell insurance policy. Where do I sign?"
To me, that "belief", the one that was reckoned to Abraham for salvation, that brought the thief into heaven that same day with Jesus, is more than just an intellectual assent that you want the benefits associated with what Jesus has done. It is more like the revelation that Thomas the Doubter had when he touched Christ's wound after His resurrection.
I really believe that fear of death will not lead to that faith. True faith is not fear motivated. Again look at the thief next to Jesus. His words were not "You have to take me with you! I do not want to burn in hell." The thief's words were that he deserved what he was getting. Instead he said "You do not deserve to die. You are innocent. Remember me in your kingdom." The last one indicates to me that he recognized Jesus for who He was. Maybe that is all it really takes for salvation... dunno...
That's one thing that's always a problem, is that different sects will say different things.
Atonement is tough too, because some acts simply cannot be atoned for. Hitler for example, how on Earth could you possibly ever atone for THAT? If atonement is required, he's likely screwed.
I'm not so much against the idea of a brimstone hell as I am against the idea of a permanent and equal hell for everyone. I'm sorry, but there's no way some minor sinner should get the same punishment as someone like Hitler (I know I know, God's justice, not my version, but still, mine is all I have!). Hell would make more sense as a "rehab" center for souls, whether the souls die or go to heaven when they complete it I couldn't care less.
Like I said before, if I was God I'd make everyone relive exactly the amount and kind of suffering they inflicted on others, nobody gets into heaven free, and nobody's stuck in brimstone forever.
But, not my call to make obviously!
It's not what's called "historical fact" in academic circles, but dispite that most people (including myself) do absolutely believe that he was a real person, and was executed for his actions as a religious leader. So dispite the fact that there's not really any proof he existed (from a historical point of view) very few people would say he didn't, because it's just common sense, the likelihood that Peter and the other Apostles (who unlike Jesus are considered verified historical persons) just made him up is preposterous.
His death definitely speaks to his very strong convictions, it takes an iron will to be willing to go through that for your beliefs.
I'd probably skip it, especially if the machine only had a few trips in it, there are some other things I'd much rather see. But, if the machine's gonna keep going, then sure, that'd be very interesting!
I would go back to a year or so before that. I would want to witness the miracles. Ask Him questions. Listen to Him teach.
And if I witnessed firsthand Him doing things that proved that He was the Son of God, could I stand by and watch Him be arrested and lashed and cruxified without getting myself killed trying to stop it? Though honestly, I would likely be like Peter and deny Him and run off to safety...
I am not sure I could handle watching anyone, much less Him, die on a cross. Heck, I had to take my my 14 year old dog to the vets to be put to sleep last night and will be teary eyed from that for a long while...
@Echostatic: I'm impressed with your bible knowledge. I'm used to frequently knowing more than those whom I debate with and you've tossed a couple of things that turned my head.
I would say that while one of the passages would tend to deny the traditional Christian concept of Hell, it doesn't necessarily preclude it, nor describe what a potential hell would be like. Is there even a hell? Biblically there's many references so from that standpoint you would have to say yes.
It's at this point that I have some serious issues with the usual definitions of God (and where I get my concept of not truly all knowing)
@THawk: I don't remember ever believing in God before my conversion. Then again conversion is a loose term since I disagree with all organized religions out there. Rather it goes back to my religious experience, that had someone told it to me during my agnostic years, I would have called them insane and recommended medical help. You would probably have a similar reaction.
I think that's one of the reasons I have such a weird view of things, because I never lost sight of the incontrovertible truth of my personal revelations, and at the same time never lost sight of what had kept me at bay so long. It took me years more after my revelation before I was even able to flesh out my own beliefs as I struggled with my new found knowledge of God against what my logic told me was plain wrong.
@Pewter: The idea of God sending us to hell for failing to believe when there's plenty of other evidence for many conflicting views is the basis of my disagreement. I see it much like an unethical dog breeder. Depending on the "strictness" of the doctrine involved, the ratios will change. Let's assume that only Christians that truly believed, had no doubts, and were truly repentant for their sins will make it. That leaves about 1:100,00 people will make it to heaven the rest going to hell.
Suppose a dog breeder was looking for a particular genetic trait that only occurred in 1:100,000 dogs so he went crazy breeding them and soaked the rest in gas lighting them on fire. Few would describe this is an act of a good kind loving person.
If God knows all, he knows you will be born, what will become of you and whether you're going to hell. Sending that many souls to eternal agony doesn't fit with the Kind and Loving deity I -know- God is.
I would say that while one of the passages would tend to deny the traditional Christian concept of Hell, it doesn't necessarily preclude it, nor describe what a potential hell would be like. Is there even a hell? Biblically there's many references so from that standpoint you would have to say yes.
It's at this point that I have some serious issues with the usual definitions of God (and where I get my concept of not truly all knowing)
@THawk: I don't remember ever believing in God before my conversion. Then again conversion is a loose term since I disagree with all organized religions out there. Rather it goes back to my religious experience, that had someone told it to me during my agnostic years, I would have called them insane and recommended medical help. You would probably have a similar reaction.
I think that's one of the reasons I have such a weird view of things, because I never lost sight of the incontrovertible truth of my personal revelations, and at the same time never lost sight of what had kept me at bay so long. It took me years more after my revelation before I was even able to flesh out my own beliefs as I struggled with my new found knowledge of God against what my logic told me was plain wrong.
@Pewter: The idea of God sending us to hell for failing to believe when there's plenty of other evidence for many conflicting views is the basis of my disagreement. I see it much like an unethical dog breeder. Depending on the "strictness" of the doctrine involved, the ratios will change. Let's assume that only Christians that truly believed, had no doubts, and were truly repentant for their sins will make it. That leaves about 1:100,00 people will make it to heaven the rest going to hell.
Suppose a dog breeder was looking for a particular genetic trait that only occurred in 1:100,000 dogs so he went crazy breeding them and soaked the rest in gas lighting them on fire. Few would describe this is an act of a good kind loving person.
If God knows all, he knows you will be born, what will become of you and whether you're going to hell. Sending that many souls to eternal agony doesn't fit with the Kind and Loving deity I -know- God is.
Shakers are an interesting case in point, although because of their celebacy, they weren't too prolific, so we don't hear much about them these days.
Bless you, Pewter...again, you've said it more elegantly than I could have.
*raises glass of mead*
Admire your courage in just stating these things.
Admire the Marys' courage in bearing compassionate witness in the confrontation with death.
So sorry for your loss. We're on this subject on the hive animal thread. Our pets are family to us.
*wipes tear*
Pewter,
I feel for your loss, my pup is 14 and has bladder cancer..he's on Piroxicam and doing well for the moment..but it's only a matter of time..
I feel for your loss, my pup is 14 and has bladder cancer..he's on Piroxicam and doing well for the moment..but it's only a matter of time..
After The Rapture
Pretty much all the people I'm expecting to see today are still here...
How about you?
Pretty much all the people I'm expecting to see today are still here...
How about you?
Does this prove I'm going to hell? How do we know that the original number taught by JW's wasn't right? Maybe we just didn't notice the few who left since so many of us stayed behind?
darn...
