Prepare to surrender, the French are coming . . .

[Oskaar]

OK this article discusses the sagging French wine industry and what some of the steps are that France and neighboring regions will be taking to bolster the lagging sales and slowing demand for the hoity doity French wines and their over the top terms, prices and attitude.

It's about friggin time they loosened up and got real!

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,13509-2112041,00.html

Cheers,

Oskaar

 

[Dan McFeeley]

Should be interesting see how the French wine industry tries to grapple with tradition and New World changes.

I was curious about this section in the article:

Purists, however, drew the line at wood shavings.
Michel-Laurent Pinat, director of the French
Bottlers and Distributors’ Association, supposed
that the fast woody flavouring was acceptable for
“the Coca-Cola and ketchup generation”.

François Roncin, of the Institut National des
Appellations d’Origine, said that the shavings made
wine that was “banal and low price” and which did
not age well. “The aroma is never as subtle as
ageing in oak casks.”

Oskaar, and any other oak experts on this forum -- what's your opinion here? Is there that marked a difference between aging in oak casks v/s wood shavings? Oak cubes and staves seem better recommended -- do they have a better effect closer to or even hardly distinguishable from oak cask aging?

 

[Dan McFeeley]

This section from an article posted by Oskaar in another thread might provide a partial answer to differences between oak casks and oak cask substitutes . . .


http://www.winebusiness.com/winemaking/webarticle.cfm?dataId=41530

Covering 31 wines over the course of the afternoon,
a more comprehensive tasting is hard to imagine.
Were a few more glasses added to the crowded tables,
a study across oak alternatives, such as staves and
powder, would have proved another interesting
comparison. However, as the brief discussion on
alternatives pointed out, oak substitutes, even
when supplemented by micro-oxygenation, simply
cannot produce the benefit of slow oxygenation that
barrels provide.


Although it only states that casks are better. If they are, I'm wondering how much better they are.

I've also been told by Chuck Wettergreen that oak cask aging is very common in the commercial production of mead in Brittany France. It would be great if there were any serious studies on this -- effects of various oaks in producing quality meads, etc.

 

[Oskaar]

Generally you can teach your palate the difference in oak barrel aged wines and oak alternative treated wines by drinking a few red and white wines that cost below $15 and look for the mocha/caramel/vanilla/smokey finish that develops as you swallow and breathe back out through your mouth. Get used to that character, and then get a $30 bottle of Zinfandel or Cabernet that has been barrel aged. The difference in structure and elegance is quite pronounced, it's kind of like the difference in a cheap pecan pie from the grocery store and a home made pecan pie.

To me it's very easy to tell the difference between oak alternative treated wine and oak barrel aged wine. Once you are familiar with the characteristics of wines/meads/beers treated with oak alternatives you can pretty much pick them up in just about any beverage medium.

In my experience there is a marked difference in the flavor profile of oak alternatives which is much more pronounced on the fore and middle palate with a lingering caramel/mocha finish. Whereas oak barrel aged wines/meads develop straight through from the aroma as you nose it, and is very integrated in all of the aspects of the wine from start to finish.

Hope that helps,

Oskaar

 

[Dan McFeeley]

Yes it does, thanks for posting this.

 

[JamesP]

Oskaar,

we're all hoping you will do some further research, to identify if your educated taste spuds can tell the difference between micro-oxygenated oak substitutes vs the real thing (oak casks) :

 

[Angus]

I am not a major wine drinker, and therefore my palate is not well educated with regard to oak and alcohol. Just recently though, I was with a friend who is a major Jack Daniels fan (he is in fact a Jack Daniels Squire) and he offered me a sip of some Gentleman Jack. The taste of oak was incredible. Now, JD filters their spirit through sweet maple charcoal, which pretty much removes all flavors, oils, fusel alcohols, etc. They then age the spirit in oak barrels for at least 4 years. This means that the only flavors present are pretty much the alcohol and the oak. It was a wonderful way of tasting what oak can do to a spirit without all of the other flavors getting in the way. Try this method to better understand what is possible.

Angus

P.S. I am not a Whiskey drinker, but I could happily sit and sip this stuff all night.

 

[Dan McFeeley]

we're all hoping you will do some further research, to identify if your educated taste spuds can tell the difference between micro-oxygenated oak substitutes vs the real thing (oak casks) :

Um, James? How do you micro-oxygenate an oak substitute? : ;D

 

[Angus]

Um, James? How do you micro-oxygenate an oak substitute? : ;D

Dan,

Actually a great question that I have been thinking about. The main disadvantages with using stainless steel aging vessels is there is no microoxygenation, and no loss to the "angels share" (anything else I am missing?). So, to attempt to duplicate the differences between barrel and steel aging that Oskaar discussed, something else needs to be done. Would the occasional opening of the bung to let in a little oxygen work? Would it be better to remove a small portion (sanitary method), let it sit out for a period of time, and return it to the Mead be better/worse? How about the occasional very short burst of O2 into the vessel?

Any thoughts or people with experience on this?

Angus

 

[Oskaar]

The Judgement of Paris - Quelle damage!

Seems as though the Re-enactment of the seminal wine tasting event in the 1970's that put California on the map as a wine power to be recognized is rapidly deflating, much like the French army at Waterloo.

See here

Can't we all just get along people? LOL

 

[Dan McFeeley]

Re: The Judgement of Paris - Quelle damage!

Pretty funny -- back in 1976 California had nothing to lose and everything to gain, now, with the USA and other countries putting out world class wines, it's the other way around! ;D

I'd have to agree with some of the French objections. There seem to be distinctions between French winemaking styles and USA winemaking styles. In this day and age, it may not be a fair comparison.

There is the story about the Paris Judgment, probably apocryphal but still funny, where a French wine judge was reported to comment on a wine "This is Californian. It has no nose." It was a French wine he was holding.

 

[Oskaar]

Re: The Judgement of Paris - Quelle Damage

Dan,

You're right on the money with the anecdote about the French wine judge. To me that is why blind tastings are a great way to really strip away one's prejudices and get down to "reality." I drink a lot of wine and mead, but in blind tastings it really comes down to what you think you know, and what you really don't know when it comes to different wines, meads, etc.

I've been caught like anyone else who's been involved in organized tastings by the dreaded "ringer!" I think that blind tastings are a great way to keep people honest, and keep the tasting objective. There are a lot of people in the wine and mead world I know who won't participate in blind tastings because they don't have the guts to look at themselves in the mirror and admit that their predispositions are incorrect. Their loss because they'll never get past their own egos and really develop an objective palate.

Being a judge at the International Mead Festival was a great way to compare notes with people who know a lot more about mead than I do. I was very fortunate to be seated with Ken Schramm and another very knowledgable judge. It was nice to see that our opinions of the meads we judged (I think we did a total of 30 in three different categories if I remember correctly) fell very closely together and it made the judging very pleasant and tremendously rewarding, at least to me. We also had a great time just yapping about mead and mead making.

So put me down for blind tastings as a great way to keep people honest.

Cheers,

Oskaar

 

[JamesP]

Um, James? How do you micro-oxygenate an oak substitute? : ;D

Dan,

My understanding of the term micro-oxygenation is that it is a new-ish method used in new world wineries,
where small amounts of oxygen is introduced into the must (by pumping the must through a wiz-bang pump that mixes oxygen into the must as it is pumped around).
This is an artificial attempt at emulating what wine casks naturally do via the oak staves.

Hence,

my hope was that someone with wine tasting experience like Oskaar would be able to differentiate between:

• naturally oaked wine,
• artificially oaked wine, and
• artificially oaked wine that was micro-oxygenated.

ie, does micro-oxygenation make artificial oaking taste more "natural" like it is claimed to do?

 

[Oskaar]

Hi James,

The microxygenation that I'm aware of does not pump the must through any apparatus, but infuses the O2 into the wine during primary fermentation by controlled flow through a stainless steel sparging tip with micro sized (microns that is) holes. The infusion process is much like using a wort aeration stone to pump oxygen into mead during aerobic fermentation when the yeast need an adequate supply of O2 to stay healthy and hungry.

See here for a good write up on oak alternatives, and micro-oxygenation. I highly suggest that folks who are interested in this subject take the time and read the information posted there.

Treating wine or mead with oak alternatives is not "artificial" vs "natural," rather it is barrel vs non-barrel oak treatments. The oak is the same oak used in barrels, but in different sizes and shapes to make it less expensive, space intensive and flexible than using barrels.

OK here's what I say on the taste differences you described below:

1. Oak Barrel Aged wine - Wine aged in oak barrels is generally regarded as the most integrated mixture of oak and wine. I agree with that assesment because the long term exposure to both the oak and the oxygen that works its way through the wood into the wine is a time proven method.

2. Oak alternatives - Imparts the oak character into wines but not as integrated as barrel maturation/aging. Still a very nice character, but it is easier to identify than barrel aging.

3. Oak and Oxygenation - During fermentation. Is a good alternative to barrel fermentation. More integrated than oak alternatives alone, and less integrated than barrel maturation.

That's the way I see it.

Cheers,

Oskaar

 

[JamesP]

Cool.

I hadn't seen anyone say that the difference between the three was noticeable (I had only heard barrel versus non-barrel).

How accurately do you think you could pick the difference between the three, in a blind tasting?

 

[Oskaar]

Depends on the wine, the oak, the length of the treatment, etc. As well as the toast level of the barrel and barrel maturation time.

Generally I'd say 7 in 10 times if the tasting isn't stacked with nothing but similar wines. If that's the case, then there's really no telling.

Cheers,

Oskaar