Right to defend yourself?

[pain]

Pewter, they try to rape me, you won't have to shoot them. They'll bleed to death from the stump of their little pee-pee. I also have knives.

And if I can't get to it, I'll shoot him in the head, or bash it in, or tear out his neck with my teeth if I have to. Far as I'm concerned, rape=deserves death. Frankly, I'd like to see public hangings come back, with mandatory attendance by all incarcerated criminals to each one. Might drop the crime rate a few notches.....

Vicky - not violent, but willing to defend myself

 

[Pewter_of_Deodar]

Pewter - what happened to him after he shot the guy? Did he go to prison? Was it worth it for him to now be locked away from his son? I'm definitely not saying that the pedophile should have gotten any sympathy, I'm just trying to show the other side and that there are ramifications for extreme actions.

Memento,

He is in prison for something like 15 or 20 years. The pedophile, had he lived, would have been out in 8 to 10, maybe 5 to 7 with good behavior. Maybe the point is that if the government/judicial were doing what they should be doing in terms of punishing criminals, and making the punishments stiff enough to act as a deterent, then those with loved ones that are harmed would be able to find closure without the need to be vigilante. What is "cruel and unusual punishment" for someone that kidnaps a young boy or girl from their home and sexually assaults them repeatedly for years? Even my Christian self can't come up with anything that I would think was out of line, including physical castration or life in prison.

Look at this discussion. Maryland law basically states that someone has the "right" to break in and steal your stuff and you are "forced" by law to flee and allow it to happen. What group of moron legislaters or what idiot judge dreamed up this law? Who does the Maryland law protect? Victim or criminal? The truth should be that the criminal surrenders ALL of his rights when he enters your home or attacks you and his rights don't return until after he FLEES. And the laws of our country should reflect that. I believe that they did 100 years ago. What happened since then?

Peace,
Pewter

 

[Pewter_of_Deodar]

Pewter, they try to rape me, you won't have to shoot them. They'll bleed to death from the stump of their little pee-pee. I also have knives.

Vicki,

My point is that no woman should have to defend herself although I am glad that you feel like you can. I can still imagine someone assaulting you when you have had a bit too much mead but there again it should never happen. You should have the RIGHT to feel secure. You should have the RIGHT to know that should someone attack you, they will be PUNISHED, not coddled in an air conditioned, three meal a day, cable television equipped, home away from home.

I have to chuckle because even most of the most pacifistic women I know seem to be unanimously agreed upon the fact that should they be raped, the rapist deserves to have it cut off. I don't disagree...

You ready for War yet?

Have a great day,
Pewter

 

[memento]

"Maybe the point is that if the government/judicial were doing what they should be doing in terms of punishing criminals, and making the punishments stiff enough to act as a deterent, then those with loved ones that are harmed would be able to find closure without the need to be vigilante."

Now I think we're in agreement! well said. What happened since then? Bleeding heart liberals crying about the rights of criminals.

 

[Pewter_of_Deodar]

Memento,

Shhhhhh... you will get the thread locked for saying things like that...

With a grin,
Pewter

 

[Oskaar]

Take a chance . . . Custer did!

Oskaar <----- Oiling up the key ;D

 

[Dmntd]

Many of the laws which relate to defending your family, loved ones, home and self from invaders are insane.

Over the years, I've talked with a number of LAPD & Sheriff Offices, time and agin I've been given the same advice. Should someone ever break into my home and I shoot them for their trouble;

1. Don't shoot them in the back.

2. Don't Shoot them if they are fleeing or outside of your home.

3. Shoot to kill.

4. If you can call the police prior to shooting them in can only help.

5. The only thing you should tell the police is "I was in fear for my life".

The other thing I've been told repeatedly. If I shoot someone in my home, saying I was in fear for my life will more then likely not hold water.

It's also been said using any weapon other then a gun to defend yourself in your home will offen be seen as an unprovoked attack rather then self defence.

What I find most troubling about these laws, they have been Drafted, Voted on and Enacted by people lacking any face to face dealings with violent crime.

Many a trained and armed soldier has died on the end of a blade. Anyone who believes a person armed with a knife, razor or screwdriver is not a threat to life is suffering from dementia. Al Capone advised running from a man with a knife, unless you had a gun.

Myself, I have an 870 Remington with seven round of #2 buckshot around for uninvited guest. I will not announce that I have a gun, when they hear it lock into battery they'll figure it out for themselves.

Dmntd

 

[Dmntd]

Of course if you shoot him and he gets blown out a window make sure you drag him back into the house.

Hey Scott,

Dragging the body anywhere is a very bad idea. It will obfuscate the crime scene and cause the District Attorney and Police to doubt your claim of fearing for your life. If they doubt your story, your going to jail and it will be left up to the courts to determine.

If you shot them while in your house (not climbing through a window) there should be blood evidence to support your claim.

Dmntd

 

[memento]

Memento,

Shhhhhh... you will get the thread locked for saying things like that...

With a grin,
Pewter

That we agree?

 

[kash]

Somehow, I feel like the villain for reporting what I've been taught. So just to set the record straight, I'll express what I believe, rather than the advice I've been given.

If someone enters my home they're likely to be met with a bright tactial light in the eyes, if they can see past that, they just might recognize the Sig p229 in 40S&W. I bet that I'd give them the opportunity to lay down and await the police. Should they point a weapon at me, they probably get all 12, or the better share of a dozen Golden Sabers somewhere between their center of mass and the punkin on their shoulders. But I really hope they take the reasonable offer to lay down and wait. I don't want to kill anyone.

What fears me, is my wife. Not that she'll be raped or murdered, but rather that she'll empty the S&W Sigma in 40cal with a frikken 16 round mag into an invader and then say, "Stop or I'll shoot". She's been through a few self defence classes and the one point she seems to consistantly neglect is the correct order.

BANG! "Stop, I have a gun", BANG, "turn around and lay down", BANG! "police are on the way" BANG! BANG! "Stop bleeding into my oriental rug" BANG BANG BANG! "thought you were going to break in here?" BANG BANG "What's your address, I'll shoot your family too", BANG BANG BANG

At this point she still has 4 shots left, and I've seen her carry an extra mag too. My wife is frikken cold blooded and scares me.

Then of course, there is the Wyoming guidelines for self defense. It's called "The Three "S's".

Shoot,
Shovel
Shut up.

 

[The Honey Farmer]

Here in Colorado we have the *make my day* law. If you feel you are in harms way, YOU HAVE THE RIGHT TO DEFEND YOURSELF. "Go ahead punk, make my day" Thanks Dirty Harry.

Be cool, Dennis 8)

 

[Pewter_of_Deodar]

I guess I am not sure who to blame. Are these really laws that have been enacted by legislatures or the results of judicial activism? Maybe both?

But the states that have laws that require the victim to flee rather than to protect their property are just open invitations for burglars to work in their state.

On the good side of things, I see that Florida and Michigan may enact laws that free up the shipment of wines (and meads?) into their states for out of state producers.

 

[Scadsobees]

Good grief...back to the original story...
This may sound cold, but that lady did everybody a huge favor...
1. She saved some other poor soul the pain of being brutally robbed or worse 15 yrs (or less) down the road when he got out of jail
2. The thousands of dollars of taxpayers money paying for that loser's legal defense, incarceration, and free lawyer time that he'd use to sue her for shooting him.

Obviously with the family response, if she'd have just shot his other leg or arm, he'd have sued her anyway. Whatever happened to shame and humiliation? "That's our boy...we were so proud of him..."

I'm not sure what the law says, but in the case of my wife, kids, and myself, I'm not taking into consideration whether we're going to live through the attack, I'm going to make sure we are. If there is any doubt, even the smallest (uh, he's in my house and moving), the hoodlum on the receiving end of the barrel is not going to have any doubt that he's not going to make it.

 

[Dmntd]

Another disturbing thing here in Los Angeles.

A gent I work with had taken his wife out dancing, when some slug starts coming on to her he just smiled and ask this guy to leave them alone. At this the offender became belligerent & started calling he and his wife names.

Before the door men could get there this guy punch my acquaintance in the face breaking his nose and knocking his wife out of her chair. By the time the police arrived the aggressor had 3 ribs, his nose and jaw broken.

They where both arrested & charged with aggravated assault.

Even though the club owner, bar tender, doormen and a half dozen customers swore at his trial, he was defending himself and didn't start this or do anything until after he had been assaulted, he was convicted of aggravated assault.

They deemed excessive and unreasonable force had been used, though he only hit the guy three times.

The cost for defending himself?

His job, in excess $15,000 in court cost and fines, he's being sued by the ass who started it, anger management as a condition of formal probation and a criminal record.

Dmntd

 

[Dan McFeeley]

Wow! This is an intense thread! Cool!

Looks like the conflict is between common sense (i.e., defending you and yours) v/s federal and state law. The two don't coincide well.

On "equal force v/s equal force" -- this is something that was taught in the security courses I took while working my way through college, outlining the legal rights of a security guard (i.e., a private citizen acting in a law enforcement position) on the job.

We were told a lot of things on this subject. You use deadly force to protect yourself, when legally justified, but you can't use deadly force or force of any kind when a criminal is fleeing the scene, etc. The rule of thumb is "meet equal force with equal force" in order to avoid law suits.

There's ways around this. I used to instruct the new security guards on our campus that, yes, you can't use force when it's not justified. You're a private citizen, not a sworn peace officer. What you *can* do is put your hand up, arm extended. If the person keeps coming, bumps against your hand, won't stop, you now have a legal right to defend yourself. Do what you will, in response to the offender.

Use of deadly force to defend you and yours -- check your local state laws. Find out what's legally justified.

Defending you and yours -- this is a crisis situation. Although it's important to know the legal restrictions, the first priority is to defend you and yours. It may mean a jail term, in the worst case scenario, but at least you've kept you and yours safe.

As always, the standard disclaimer. None of this counts as qualified legal advice, only my personal opinion.

At heart, I'm a pacifist in practice and ideology, but aware that the word "pacifist" doesn't mean "passive." It means, more or less, "peace maker." Let's keep the peace, calmly, and most importantly, assertively. ;D

 

[Dan McFeeley]

Here's a URL relevant to Illinois residents:

http://pages.prodigy.net/fhattys/page10.html

. . . covers the subject well. Has a nice common sense feeling that I'd guess other states would follow suit. I hope.

A lot of this makes common sense. An obnoxious person doesn't deserve deadly force. The law would recognize this. A person breaking into a home at the dead of night -- that's a different story. Breaking into a home commuincates intent. Act thereof.

In the hospital emergency room where I work (I do the psychiatric intake) this plays a huge role. Can I stop a person from leaving the ER? Sometimes, but not always. Can I use force? Sometimes, but not always. Can our ever reliable security people use force? Sometimes, but not always. The legal issues here are stringent, but workable. We can be legal, but also take care of the patient.

Working out the "sometimes" is difficult in a crisis situation. First priority is protection of you and yours (i.e., the patient, your team mates, your co-workers). Keep 'em safe!

The basic principles, legal and otherwise, that apply in hospital emergency rooms also apply in the home. Keep 'em safe! That's the common sense and legal approach. I'd like to think that the two, idealistically speaking, coincide, but in real life they don't always.

Another precaution -- keep dogs! It works. Most people who break into homes have checked it out long before. They don't want to risk an encounter with a dog. Guns are good, but dogs are better than fences in keeping people out of the home.

I was walking the Guinness loving hound today, going across the river bridge, and a person who saw us coming went off the bridge and onto the street to avoid us. He didn't know the hound (a big coward!) but stayed away from him. Guns are good, but dogs are also good. Sometimes, under the right circumstances, even better.

 

[SteveT]

Somehow, I feel like the villain for reporting what I've been taught. So just to set the record straight, I'll express what I believe, rather than the advice I've been given.

snip...

Then of course, there is the Wyoming guidelines for self defense. It's called "The Three "S's".

Shoot,
Shovel
Shut up.

You are not the villan for reporting, perhaps very, stupid state laws. I think we hit on a topic that is very passionate for many folks here.

Regarding use of equal force, police are trained that if someone advances toward them with a knife, they shoot to kill.

Here's another great web site with laws broken down on a state by state basis www.packing.org

 

[Oskaar]

This is one of the best threads we've had in a while. I've had some first hand experience directly in, and related to this area and was curious to see what people had to say on the subject.

Related experience requiring response:

I worked in a restaurant that was on a corner location conveniently located between a freeway on ramp and off ramp. Needless to say it was a tempting target for robberies. I experienced two, one at sawed-off double barrel shotgun point and the other at large caliber (snub-nosed S&W .44 mag). Both times the only response that was reasonable was cooperation. They were obviously more nervous than I was, and we didn't have a "time-locked" safe in our restaurant so we just showed them where the safe was and they locked us in the walk in freezer. Little did they know that all walk-in freezers have an emergency release on the inside door. We popped the release, ran to the front of the building and took down the license plate as they hit the road. In both cases they were caught and jailed.

Another instance in which I did have to respond was when I was approached by three guys while I was fishing in the morning. Seems they wanted my wallet, and it also seems they had done this before because they were well coordinated. They had knife boy and stick boy keeping my attention to the front and side while another tried to work his way around back. Well, they didn't count on me using my fishing pole on them. Hey, it's a reach weapon and the two in front had short weapons. Backstab boy got a broken hip for his trouble, stick boy got the short end of my fishing pole in the right chest. Knife boy got me with two shallow jabs in the stomach before I took the knife and flayed his arm to the bone from the wrist to the elbow. So I beat feet and hopped in my car and headed to the hospital to get stitched up and a tetanus shot. Police came to the hospital and took the report, they didn't arrest anyone that I know of.

Home break in:

While I was living in Texas, I came home with my best friend (pFredd) from a party and noticed that my garage door was open. Naturally I was wondering what the hell was going on so I pulled out my my favorite short blade, see link in this post:

http://www.gotmead.com/index.php?option=com_smf&Itemid=103&topic=3045.msg29043#msg29043

It's a really ugly blade, is pitted and scored and has obviously been used a lot. Anyhow, I get out of the truck, pFredd jumps out and is instantly pissed off. He does the musculary stalking thing that hunting dogs do when they're moving in on point. Then he takes off like a rocket into the house and a couple of seconds later there's a loud scream and I'm in there like gangbusters. pFredd has the guy down on the ground by the arm, and there's a small caliber hand gun on the floor a couple feet away from the guy.

He looks at me and then at the gun, meanwhile pFredd is chewing him up pretty good so I run over and stomp on his neck and called pFredd off. I told him to roll over on his stomach or I'll scalp him (he had a good head of hair and it would have looked good on my belt) his eyes bugged out and he rolled over. I kicked the gun away and knelt on his neck while I trussed him up and called the cops.

They carted him off to jail and took all my information and my statement. I was deposed a couple of weeks later and told my story in court, and that was the end of it. He was a repeat offender that was off on parole, with a history of assault and one attempted murder.

pFredd got a big steak every night for a week after that! He still gets one at least once a week still.

My take on this is simple. It's him or me, and it ain't gonna be me because I don't play fair. I've worked with enough police and sheriff departments that I have a good idea of what to say and what not to say. Bottom line is that there's only going to be one side of the story, and it'll be mine.

Cheers,

Oskaar

 

[Brewbear]

First thing I'll say is that I hold life sacred...except!
That being said, the exception is: if i have to choose between the life of a dirtbag that broke into my house and the life of a loved one, well, he lost! Any of my family members know that in case of "trouble" I'll be there ready to respond and frankly, people at the range where I practice call me a dirty shooter. I generally practice on a lifesize target at 25 yards. Due to my choice of weapons I have to use the rifle range even though I use a handgun (Dan Wesson 44 Mag)that people call a handcannon due to it's 8 inch barrel. They call me a dirty shooter because i shoot first in the groin and secondly in the chest - they will suffer and know they are about to die!
As for Oskaar's story, bud, you had no choice, the graveyard is full of dead heroes!!! The other good point is that if gun control= ability to hit your target, then there is only one story to be heard- yours!
Dan makes a good point also, a dog is a huge deterrent and Cheyenne, my baby, is a light 180 pounds of very ornery english mastiff

Cheers,
Brewbear

 

[Dan McFeeley]

My take on this is simple. It's him or me, and it ain't gonna be me because I don't play fair. I've worked with enough police and sheriff departments that I have a good idea of what to say and what not to say. Bottom line is that there's only going to be one side of the story, and it'll be mine.

This is pretty good -- familiarity with the law and court system, knowing what to say and what not to say. Great pFredd story too.

Using whatever means are available to counter a threat and save lives (your own and others) isn't necessarily unfair -- it's what you have to do.

It's very hard to critique self defense stories on the basis of general principles (unless you're sitting on a jury and have to). They have to be taken as a crisis situation where often there is no time to think, just react. Each one is different and has to be weighed on the basis of individual merits.

I found a couple of sites that cover this area:

http://tkdtutor.com/07Defense/Laws.htm

http://www.spw-duf.info/force.html

with the standard disclaimer -- none of this constitutes legal advice of any kind.