Sorbate and Sulphite per gl. in traditional mead

[Himmesh]

Hi,

I believe that this information should be somewhere in the forms but i couldn't find it.

I saw that the amount of Sorbate and Sulphite varies between the wines depending on color and acidity.

what will be the exact amounts i will need for a traditional mead? (water, honey and yeast)

 

[Dadux]

Welcome to gotmead forum, Himmesh

I use 0.35 grams/l of sulphites and 0.27 g/l of potassium sorbate. You can search for other threads that actually explain why this amount or if you are interested i can explain it. 0.27 g/l is only if you use potassium sorbate as your sorbic acid source (you can buy sorbic acid alone i believe but potassium is the most common form)
The sulphites ammount can be tailored depending on the pH. This ammount works consistently for me in meads with a pH between 3 and 3.5. there are articles on winemaking about the subject if you want to be more precise. If you intend to backsweeten, let the sulphites work for at least a day and after you add the honey keep an eye on it. If it referments either your pH is higher than expected or your yeast is very resistant to sulphites. This can happen. You solve it by adding more sulphites. I have had this problems using beer yeasts but this ammount has never given me trouble with wine/mead/champagne yeasts

Edit: this ammounts are maxed for what I usually brew. Do not add more potassium sorbate than that nor more sulphites "just to make sure". If you suspect the ph of your mead is 3 or lower you can cut back to 0.3 g/l of sulphites or even less. If you do not intend to backsweeten you may not need the sorbate, or such a high ammount of sulphites. Half of that might work. You can still add it. Sorbate gices your meads a maximum shelf life before they are ruined (however its long. I dont know how long but enough unless you intend to age it for more than 1 year or 2). Sulphites dissipate over time so if you age for a long time in bulk you might want to add some (VERY LITTLE) more before bottling. Specially if you are aging in a bucket or recipient with a lot of headspace

 

[Squatchy]

So one piece that wasn't touched on was this. Sulphites bind to othe rthings in your mead. So if you were to add 50 PPM at the time you stabilize you won't have 50 PPM of "FREE" sulphites as insurance when you bottle. You will need an analizer to check for free SO2 if your intent is to be so exact. I use this https://vinmetrica.com/product/vinmetricas-sc-300-sulfite-and-phta-wine-analyzer/

I understand not everyone will feel the urge to buy this. ALso. If you add sorbate you should really add sulphits. You run a good chance of getting a gerinol off flavor if you don't.

Lastly. Most publications will tell you if you adjust your final add, you should seek to adjust to get to 50PPM "FREE" SO2. Just so you know, some people will actually be able to taste 50PPM. I usually adjust to 30 PPM before I bottle.

 

[Dadux]

Yes. The free sulphites depend on pH mostly though. Sulphites also bind to yeast, fruits, spices or anything you add to mead. Even honey to backsweeten. But that amount will work just fine as long as you dont have a shitload of stuff. The pH is the most important thing. Dont add sulphites if you have 2 pounds/gallon of fruit in the must but you will be ok even if you have some cinnamon or stuff that is not too big.

 

[Squatchy]

Yes. The free sulphites depend on pH mostly though. Sulphites also bind to yeast, fruits, spices or anything you add to mead. Even honey to backsweeten. But that amount will work just fine as long as you dont have a shitload of stuff. The pH is the most important thing. Dont add sulphites if you have 2 pounds/gallon of fruit in the must but you will be ok even if you have some cinnamon or stuff that is not too big.

Why would you advise to not add sulphites if he has 2 pounds of fruit in his batch? Am I understanding your post? This makes no sense to me

 

[Dadux]

Because, as you said, sulphites bind to everything. Adding the sulphites with a large quantity of fruit will reduce the effect. You rack the fruit chunks first and then add the sulphites when its clear. If you dont, the free sulphites bond to fruit, and then its not free SO2 anymore.

 

[Himmesh]

what i have in the carboy:

Sunday Jan 15 '17 started up
5 Gallon carboy
20 lb. honey
Water to fill the carboy
Dissolved the honey by shaking and mixing in 100 F water
1 packet red star champagne yeast, in 105f water for a few minutes and then pitched before it started fermenting
Air locked
No Nutrients, No Enzymes, No Energizer
SG 1.162 (if i got the measurement right... it was the first time i used a hydrometer).

3-4 days later I added 20 red hole seedless table grapes to make up for the missing Nutrients, Enzymes etc.(?!?!) fermentation accelerated to a bobble per second.

Sunday Feb 5 after 3 weeks fermentation
SG 1.090
Tasting very good (raisins, maybe its normal and maybe it got the taste from the 20 grapes?)
Very strong ugly yeast smell (did some form browsing on "getmead" and) Racked off, the small went back to a delicious sweet wine smell (still has some of the raisin smell) so now it smells and tastes delicious.
fermentation slowed down to 1 bobble every 3-4 seconds

Monday 2/6 I added 15 hole green grapes
Fermentation accelerated to a bobble every 1-2 seconds
Wednesday 2/8 smell check checked out, it smells good.

*
I want this to end as a sweet mead
I really need this bottled and ready in 3 weeks, can i achieve this? if so, how? i need exact instructions.

P.S. i know that aging will do its work but a 90% thing will be good enough for now. (I specified "hole" grapes because I have a second batch started a week after this one withthe exact same recipy except for fermenting in a plastic bucket instead of a glass carboy, red star premier cuvee yeast instead of red star champagne yeast and i added the 20 grapes busted instead of hole.


Thank you Dadux and Squatchy

 

[Dadux]

Im going to give my oppinion but I am not as experienced as Squatchy or others so you may want to hold on till you her their advice aswell
You can easily have that bottled in 3 weeks. however, it wont be "good" by any mead standards. There is nothing wrong with doing meads without nutrients (In fact there is a type of mead called Show Mead that is only water yeast and honey). But not using them greatly slows both fermentation and aageing required. The only reason why this tasted any good to you is because its megasweet. SO the only actual way to have anyone drink this in 3 weeks and think it tastes any good is if it has a shitton of residual sugar. Some meads do this, but not most. Its not for everyone palate and even with this kind of overly sweet meads they are recomended to age long.
If i were you i would try boiling some yeast (bakers yeast, cheap one, not the one you use to ferment mead) for 5 minutes or so and then add that to the must. that would give some nutrients to the active yeasts (yes, they cannibalize) and help the ferment a bit.
Im sorry to tell you that, even with the new practices that make aging times way shorter, that mead wont be good in 3 weeks. You will learn patience the hard way. Dont worry, most of us tried to get meads to be good faster, but you need to have patience anyway. If you want fast mead check out the BOMM recipes.
Understand that 1.162 is a super high gravity. this is bad for the yeast. the fact that you didnt add nutrients does not help, and it seems you didnt degass or aereate either. because of this, the yeast will produce a lot of off flavours. those will dissapear with time, and you dont taste them now because the faults are covered by the superhigh ammount of sugar.
If you STILL want to try and have it ready in 3 weeks, put the carboy in the fridge or somewhere with 4ºC or less for a week. Then rack and stabilize with sorbate and sulphites. Wait two weeks and bottle. This will yield a very very sweet tasting mead, cloying probably. However, i think its best if you let it run its course, try to feed it and take your time. With that gravity and the absence of nutrients, you will have a sweet mead nonetheless. we are talking about 5 gallons here, its not 4 bottles what you are risking.
About the grape flavour...well it has happened to me too. i dont like it so i dont ever add raisins or grapes to my meads. but that is just personal preference.

 

[caduseus]

what i have in the carboy:

Sunday Jan 15 '17 started up
5 Gallon carboy
20 lb. honey
Water to fill the carboy
Dissolved the honey by shaking and mixing in 100 F water
1 packet red star champagne yeast, in 105f water for a few minutes and then pitched before it started fermenting
Air locked
No Nutrients, No Enzymes, No Energizer
SG 1.162 (if i got the measurement right... it was the first time i used a hydrometer).

3-4 days later I added 20 red hole seedless table grapes to make up for the missing Nutrients, Enzymes etc.(?!?!) fermentation accelerated to a bobble per second.

Sunday Feb 5 after 3 weeks fermentation
SG 1.090
Tasting very good (raisins, maybe its normal and maybe it got the taste from the 20 grapes?)
Very strong ugly yeast smell (did some form browsing on "getmead" and) Racked off, the small went back to a delicious sweet wine smell (still has some of the raisin smell) so now it smells and tastes delicious.
fermentation slowed down to 1 bobble every 3-4 seconds

Monday 2/6 I added 15 hole green grapes
Fermentation accelerated to a bobble every 1-2 seconds
Wednesday 2/8 smell check checked out, it smells good.

*
I want this to end as a sweet mead
I really need this bottled and ready in 3 weeks, can i achieve this? if so, how? i need exact instructions.

P.S. i know that aging will do its work but a 90% thing will be good enough for now. (I specified "hole" grapes because I have a second batch started a week after this one withthe exact same recipy except for fermenting in a plastic bucket instead of a glass carboy, red star premier cuvee yeast instead of red star champagne yeast and i added the 20 grapes busted instead of hole.


Thank you Dadux and Squatchy

Well this sounds like the "pitch and leave" approach. Which is fine...if you don't mind waiting a year to be drinkable.
You may want to check out the newbee forums or the Meadology series on Youtube if you don't want to wait a year to drink a mead.

 

[Himmesh]

Thanks all, I am getting to love this place...
I did spend lots on time on the NewBee Guide

I must give this out in like 3-4 weeks, it will be drank by folks who have 0 knowledge on Mead so if sweet is the trick then let be it.

I do shake the carboy daily (to make sure that the grapes are wet) and i do it vigorously, in most cases the liquid in the airlock will go shooting out and i will have to refill it, should i go ahead and degas using the drill? will this help? i am thinking about stopping the fermentation in the next few days, should i degas now? should i do it daily?

 

[Himmesh]

Dadux, how much boiled bakers yeast should i add to the 5 gal?

 

[Dadux]

Some shaking does no harm. you can take out the airlock and then shake no worries, you aint gonna get it spoiled or infected. I do it everyday, usually shake for like 30s before i leave my house and some more when i get back.
If you are giving it away, will you give it all? you might want to keep a few bottles to see how it improves or changes over time.
The bakers yeast will act as nutrients. You dont want to add it if you are going to stop the fermentation now, there is no point. If you want it to keep fermenting for a week or so you can add it, I usually add a tsp per 5-6 liters (so 1 tsp/1.5 galons should work nicely). Your ferment is ending so just add a couple tsp in a bit of water, boil it well, and if you want, you can always add some more later on, but I doubt you will need it.
The tricky thing with sweet meads is you want them sweet and balanced, not cloying. What you are aiming for might (Or not! depends on the drinker of course) be a bit unbearable to drink in a wine glass, so you might want to do shots with it or something. Also, mead served cold has less percived sweetness. You can try it and see if its easier to drink cold.
Also be careful when bottling. read some posts on the subject. you want to leave your carboy a few days in a place without moving it (better a cold place) so the remaining yeasts settle in the bottom and then bottle, siphoning from top to bottom to ensure that at least the first bottles are as clean as posible. If you siphon some yeasts from the bottom into a bottle its ok. I usually keep those for me and the others i give or share. If you dont have a corker and intend to use wine bottles (which is the most common way to bottle) I'd recomend investing in one. The double lever ones are cheap and work well. Takes a bit of time and effort but for 10 euros well you cant complain.
Well I might have gone overboard and given you a lot of info. But you would do good in planning ahead a bit so you are ready for all the next steps. Meadmaking is indeed a complicated art. It takes time and knowledge to do it right.

 

[Dadux]

Also, can you tell us the current gravity? and is it still fermenting? If it has stopped fermenting dont bother with the boiled yeast.

 

[Squatchy]

Because, as you said, sulphites bind to everything. Adding the sulphites with a large quantity of fruit will reduce the effect. You rack the fruit chunks first and then add the sulphites when its clear. If you dont, the free sulphites bond to fruit, and then its not free SO2 anymore.

I get it. I wasn't familiar with your time frame. I may have missed that somehow

 

[Himmesh]

Also, can you tell us the current gravity? and is it still fermenting? If it has stopped fermenting dont bother with the boiled yeast.

I posted it earlier, last I measured was Sunday - 4 days ago, it was 1.090 until now i looked at the SG once a week, should i more often?
It is still fermenting.

 

[Dadux]

you can measure whenever you want of course. but it would be helpful to know how much has fermented already and what is the ABV. with a very sweet mead you usually want a high ABV (i'd say 14-18%). Knowing how much you have now will tell you if you should wait some more before stopping the ferment. I was just asking because of that, but dont worry. measure it tomorrow or on saturday no problem with it. When you do so, you can calculate the ABV with an online calculator such as gotmead's or just google "SG to ABV wine calculator"
Also it gives you an idea of the speed of the ferment and what can you expect.
And Squatchy, maybe I didnt explain great anyway. I guesed you knew about the sulphites by now anyway ;D

 

[Squatchy]

you can measure whenever you want of course. but it would be helpful to know how much has fermented already and what is the ABV. with a very sweet mead you usually want a high ABV (i'd say 14-18%). Knowing how much you have now will tell you if you should wait some more before stopping the ferment. I was just asking because of that, but dont worry. measure it tomorrow or on saturday no problem with it. When you do so, you can calculate the ABV with an online calculator such as gotmead's or just google "SG to ABV wine calculator"
Also it gives you an idea of the speed of the ferment and what can you expect.
And Squatchy, maybe I didnt explain great anyway. I guesed you knew about the sulphites by now anyway ;D

No Problem. I did mention about "free" SO2 and binding in above. It's all good

 

[Himmesh]

Thursday 2/9 I degassed with a drill + vigorous shaking

The SG is 1.080 down from 1.090 on Sunday

I boiled 2 teaspoons of bread yeast (bad smell) I left it to cool down then in to the carboy I gave it a good shake. the airlock bobbling slowed down dramatically (bobble per 30 seconds) and the must started smelling really bad (like the boiled bread yeast).

Over night the air lock bobbling picked up back to where it was the day before (bobble every 1-2 seconds).

Will the bread yeast smell disappear after racking/clearing with bentonite or will it have to age out?

 

[Dadux]

I know haha, boiled yeast smells kinda bad.
Well I use it constantly and the flavour never remains. The rests of the boiled yeast that is not eaten by other healthy yeasts will precipitate and you will leave it behind when you rack.
It seems your ferment is really slow. It would be ideal to wait until its at least 1.050 to stop the fermentation. If your timeline does not allow for this, well, your choice. But 1.050 is what is considered a dessert mead. very sweet ones. and as of now you have only 11% ABV. If you get it to 1.050 it would be 14.6% (according to gotmead calculator) which is a much fitting ammout for a mead that sweet. Hopefully it will ferment faster now that they are a bit more fed. keep degasing and move the carboy everyday so the lees dont settle at the bottom.