Sour beer advice

[akueck]

Any sour beer brewers out there? I'm thinking of embarking on a lambic adventure, and I'm wondering about what bugs to use, when, and how to deal with air exposure.

Current (nascent) plan:
1) Brew a simple wort, something like 50/50 pilsner and wheat extract with some maltodextrin or all-purpose flour tossed in. Old hops, if ours are old enough, or fresh hops that have been gently baked.
2) Split the wort (in some unknown ratio) and pitch US-05 and WLP655 (Belgian Sour blend).
3) Rack US-05 beer after a few weeks. Somehow add bug beer.
4) Wait a very long time.

Questions I have:
A) Should I bother with the split pitch? If yes, what is a good ratio?
B) Do I airlock the bug beer, leave it open, something in between?
C) When recombining, if I split it, do I rack or pour the bug beer, or simply make it in the "receiving" vessel to begin with?
D) Is 655 a good blend? Other alternatives, like pitching a lacto/pedio culture instead?

Thanks in advance. I only probably have another 18 months in this state so I think I need to try this once before I go. Better get started!

 

[Beertracker]

Q: Should I bother with the split pitch? If yes, what is a good ratio?
A: I wouldn't bother splitting the batch, but if you're going to then a do a split 50/50.

Q: Do I airlock the bug beer, leave it open, something in between?
A: I use plastic fermentors with an airlock affixed, just be certain to dedicate/designate you sour beer equipment so you don't cross-contaminate your other beers and/or meads.

Q: When recombining, if I split it, do I rack or pour the bug beer, or simply make it in the "receiving" vessel to begin with?
A: Doesn't really matter, so long as they're both removed from their respective lees.

Q: Is 655 a good blend? Other alternatives, like pitching a lacto/pedio culture instead?
A: The Belgian Sour Mix is fine, as the cultures work in seperate phases anyway. I much prefer the Roeselare Ale Blend from Wyeast. Either would be a good starting point into the world of sour beers. Good luck!

ccasion14:

 

[akueck]

I think I am actually leaning towards splitting the batch and using part of it as kind of a starter for the bugs. The lees from this portion will also serve as bug food. Thinking of doing something like a 4/1 split between US-05 and 655.

I will have dedicated sour equipment. I am thinking of using a carboy hood with a dowel in one port and an airlock in the other. The airlock should allow for outgassing that exceeds the permeability of the wood, and the wood should let some air in. Eventually it will be just the wood, maybe. Suppose the airlock in addition wouldn't be so bad. Got a dowel today, now to make sure it fits.

I love sour beer! Made a few with a soured mash, but this will be the first time with bugs in the fermenter.

 

[Oskaar]

I think I am actually leaning towards splitting the batch and using part of it as kind of a starter for the bugs. The lees from this portion will also serve as bug food. Thinking of doing something like a 4/1 split between US-05 and 655.

I will have dedicated sour equipment. I am thinking of using a carboy hood with a dowel in one port and an airlock in the other. The airlock should allow for outgassing that exceeds the permeability of the wood, and the wood should let some air in. Eventually it will be just the wood, maybe. Suppose the airlock in addition wouldn't be so bad. Got a dowel today, now to make sure it fits.

I love sour beer! Made a few with a soured mash, but this will be the first time with bugs in the fermenter.

I helped one of my buddies with a "dowled" and "non-dowled" flanders red in the style of Jamil Z. and it worked wonderfully. We used WYeast 3763PC Roeselare Ale Blend from the start and they took off pretty well. The non-dowled version developed the pelicle much more slowly. See photo.

Cheers, Oskaar

 

[akueck]

Wow, funky!

I've heard differing opinions on whether the dowel should be submerged in the liquid or just set into the opening. For now I am planning on just sealing with the wood to form a semipermeable barrier. (I just got regular old dowels, probably pine or something.) Do you think headspace matters? Suppose it would be safer to have extra in case the bugs are rowdy.

My friend/officemate and I are going to start this hopefully next week. Woo!

 

[wildoates]

Boy, am I PO'd. I've never even HEARD of sour beer. I'm gonna have to do some research on this one, boys.

 

[Oskaar]

Based on what we did, I'd have to throw my semi-experienced opinion to the dowel side of the room. The beer actually went through fermentation quicker with a cleaner profile, matured quicker, was smoother and more integrated months earlier than the non-doweled sour, and is more rounded and deep after about a year and a half.

There are more volatile esters, phenols and higher acidity in the non-doweled version which is fine if that's what you're after, but I'm more in the range of looking for a blend/superset of Duchesse de Bourgogne, La Folie and Consecration ales.

Aaron, let me know if you want the recipe, I'll put it up in the Patron Recipe Area.

Cheers,

Pete

 

[wildaho]

Mmmmmmmm....

Consecration!

We did a sour tasting a couple of weeks ago, featuring mostly the new beers from Cascade brewery in Portland. Of course, a La Folie showed up as well. The highlight of the night was the Consecration though. Gotta love Russian River! We even cracked a couple from New Glarus.

We've got another night planned with ALL of the "-ation" beers from Russian River. They're all in place, it's only a matter of coordinating when we can all be together at the same time.

Aaron,

I posted a link a while back (year ago?) to Wayne about what OldSock was doing with an oak dowel for his bug beers. It's a good blog to look at but I'm too lazy to give you a link! EDIT: here's his blog, he plays around with a lot of bugs in his beers, breads and cheeses: MadFermentaitionist You'll have to do a search from there. Look in 2007?

:cheers:
Wade

 

[akueck]

We have two bottles (left) of Consecration in the closet. ;D Love RR! I enjoyed the Beatification too, but it wasn't available last time we were up there. And Damnation is just . We weren't quite as big fans of Duchesse, thought it was too sweet. Haven't had La Folie yet, but I hope to soon. New Belgium does some good stuff, though I'm not all that into the staples like Fat Tire. Have you tried the Goji berry beer? Not that it's spectacular but it's not bad. I think 1554 is my favorite so far.

Pete I'd love to see a recipe to get an idea of where to go. Was going to try something really basic this time around to get a baseline idea of how the bugs turn out, but I can be convinced to go a more exciting direction.

Wade I'll check that blog out. Thanks!

Wildoates--Santa Rosa is not that far away. It's the weekend.
They have samplers, you can get everything they have on tap brought to you in ~2-3 oz pours. I'm not a huge IPA fan but they have some of the best I have had. And the Belgian-style stuff is beyond words. The pizza is good but we usually go for sandwiches with a well-dressed side salad. I'll be there next Sunday with my new shiny AHA card (and a PhD!).

And I was just told I used too many smilies. I would use a sad one here but I can't. Sorry Mr. Server, sour beer deserves grins!

 

[wildoates]

Congrats on the PhD, Aaron! In what?

Now the hard part--getting a job.

Sadly my weekends are booked for the next several, but I'm going to pass Wade's link on to my son (as soon as his trial is over and he can breathe again) as he might want to try it.

 

[akueck]

Holy cow that Blog is great! Here is one where he talks about his experience with the chair leg. I think I am going to do something similar with a dowel/airlock combo so nothing blows up, and for now I'm going to keep the wood above the liquid. I'll probably add some preboiled oak cubes to provide some wood sugars, etc for the bugs instead. Or maybe I'll use the cubes I have that I saved from previous batches?

PhD- Materials Science & Engineering. Should be official Monday or Tuesday, depending on when I finish the last edits and when I can track down the last signature. Job is definitely hard to find right now. More time to count bubbles in the airlocks.

 

[afdoty]

PhD- Materials Science & Engineering. is definitely hard to find right now. More time to count bubbles in the airlocks.

Dude, congraduation!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!... I did a BS.minor Metalurgey.... majoe mechanicle!!!!!!! I' m poud for you!!!!!!!!!! Lets build some helicopters!

 

[wildaho]

Aaron,

Yeah, I know. OldSock is so very complete in his blogs. He is curious, and he tests his results over time timer rather than saying it works or not right off. I appreciate his style, if not his methods. Personally, if I where to try this, I would have the dowel in contact with your must/wort/whatever.

That same dowel can be re-used in other batches since the wood has been innoculated with the bugs. And the brett and pedio DO have a preference for oak. There is a place (somewhere in this blog) where he started his bugs from oak chips that came from a properly infected barrel from either The Abbey or Port Brewing, I forget which.

It's a definitely interesting area for explorationn. Can you get a "proper" sour from a "pure" strain from either Wyeast or White Labs? Hmmm. I like that mystery of the the infected oak instead.

It's definitely an area I'd like to explore.

Think about it. If you have a properly infected oak dowel, you can re-use it in every batch you want to try it in as long as it it's in contact with your beer/must/whatever. It seems easier than finding a specific strain of bugs. With the infectected oak, you are maintaiining your own strain. I like that for some reason.

:cheers:
Wade