Technology destroying the ability to think?

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Angus

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Not so much a rant as an amazed observation. Thought it might incite an interesting discussion:

Was in a debate with a friend as to the actual MPG achieved by my Toyota Corolla. I commented that I was getting an average of 34 miles to the gallon. He said I was not. But, I responded, I write down the gallons of gas pumped and the miles driven on that gas, divide one by the other, and get an average for my car. So far, it has been a good 34 mpg (I drive mostly highway).

You are wrong was his response because you are not taking into account the time factor :o ??? :o

What time factor?

According to the computer on his Mercedes, he actually is getting 22 mpg, even though using my calculations would show an average of 26 mpg. But the computer is providing an estimated MPG based on the history and habits of the driver. It is telling you what to "expect" to get based on the majority of the driving. He was adamant that his car only got 22 mpg despite the fact that the actual mileage divided by the actual gas used was 26 mpg.

To me, this is a clear case of letting a computer do the thinking for you and not understanding how it works. Is this our future? Are we to become so reliant on machines that we cannot think for ourselves? This guy is an engineer, and yet he now cannot comprehend the simple act of finding an average.

Thoughts......

Angus
 
Angus said:
I write down the gallons of gas pumped and the miles driven on that gas, divide one by the other, and get an average for my car. So far, it has been a good 34 mpg (I drive mostly highway).

You are wrong was his response because you are not taking into account the time factor :o ??? :o

You're both wrong... you have to subtract the distance traveled in reverse first! ::) :P ;D ;D ;D That's irony for you.

Wrathwilde
 
He’ll probably come to his senses after he considers the time component.
(Drive x minutes at rate 22 mpg, accelerate from a stop for y minutes at a rate <22 mpg, and car burns gas while stopped for z minutes, etc) = 26 mpg.
 
Angus said:
He was adamant that his car only got 22 mpg despite the fact that the actual mileage divided by the actual gas used was 26 mpg.
...
Angus said:
This guy is an engineer, and yet he now cannot comprehend the simple act of finding an average.
Angus
...
Angus said:
What time factor?

I have silently enjoyed your posts for a long time and hope that you see my response as a chance to share something interesting rather than an outburst from another forum troll trying to flex his e-penis. I also hope that you will be forgiving of the sloppiness in which I must present the following argument - it has been a long time since semester two calculus in school.

In discrete mathematics, finding an average is as simple as dividing a partial sum by the number of terms. In continuous maths, like calculus, the situation is slightly more complicated. How do you compute the average of a continuous function (think of a graph of your MPG vs time)? You can produce a series of measurements taken from pit stops at the fuel-and-go and produce an average that way, but if you drive on the highway with the windows down for the first half of the tank and in the city with the AC on for the second, your approximation is really not very telling – especially if you spent any time idling. If, on the other hand, you were to compute the MPG with a direct measurement (which the on-board computer is probably approximating) - basically, you're measuring the amount of fuel consumed per distance traveled as the distance approaches zero - then you have a supremely precise approximation of fuel efficiency, but it is still not very telling (it is perverted in EXACTLY the same way that the phrase, "off on a tangent" describes, as the instantaneous mpg is exactly tangent to the graph of mpg vs. time for any given instant).

Ultimately, you are both correct. If my argument made any sense, then you can see for yourself that the most useful measure would likely be taken by samplings of the on-board computer which would then be averaged, Angus-style. My statistics kung-fu is way way way too weak to be able to even suggest how to best choose when to sample the readings, however.

That said, I will add that I like your friend's notion of measurement against time more, because I find continuous maths to be beautiful and intuitive and discrete maths to be puzzling and bizarre. The best way to relate my beliefs to this example is probably with illustration: using your methods to calculate average MPG with my scenario of wildly differing vehicle usage, you might have computed a MPG of 34 by virtue of having an actual MPG of 68 MPG for the first half of the tank and 17 for the second - but you never, ever, had an actual MPG of 34. What happens to your measurements if 90% of your fuel is used while idling? Using his methods - or what I'm assuming his computer is doing - of continuous measurement, it is absolutely guaranteed (by the fundamentally beautiful Mean Value Theorem of calculus) that he at some point was actually operating at the MPG which he is claiming as an average. To me, this is neat - neat enough to share.
 
Angus said:
To me, this is a clear case of letting a computer do the thinking for you and not understanding how it works. Is this our future?
Jesus, I hope so. I don't have the capacity to understand how every little thing in the world works. One should learn about the intricacies of Mercedes engineering because it is intellectually stimulating, not because it is mandatory for making the damned thing go!
 
I personally hate having the computers think for me.

Example, a couple of years ago as all of Malibu was burning, a good friend of mine jumped in his shiny new Cadillac and went off to save his girlfriend's cat and dogs. On the way back, running in front of the fire the wind changed and blew the smoke towards and over him. His on board computer said “Oh My Gosh, we have to much carbon in the air their must be something wrong, I think I’ll just shut down so I don’t hurt the engine”. Luckily there was a fire crew following along behind and rescued him, the cat and the dogs. May the Cadillac rest in peace.

The cause of the engine failure was reported by Cadillac after they had looked at the car.


Cheers
Jay
 
Angus,

On a 2nd more serious side, I do agree with your calculations. Time is not a factor in finding the actual historical average because you are only trying to calculate the actual miles driven by the quantity of gas used. And how does your friend explain away the fact that he actually drove 260 miles on 10 gallons of gas instead of 220 miles? Seems straightforward to me. I had a Ford Taurus at one point that calculated mileage... it was always wrong. The problem is that the cars computer has no idea how much gas you've actually put in the car, the floater that signals the gauge only knows approximately how much gas you have, inclines in any direction will give false readings. The Gas Pumps on the other hand know exactly how much gas you got, and your cars milage display knows exactly how far you've gone.

Wrathwilde
 
mminuet,

Oddly enough, by explaining the methodology of fuel consumption calculations, you have sort of proven my point. Not satisfied with merely staring at the readout of a computer and taking it as fact, you would rather relate the lessons learned in Calculus to the real world. In other words, you are willing to think for yourself (nice explanation too).

My issue here, as Wrath points out, is that there is a lapse of thinking when a person ignores the fact that their odometer actually reads 260 miles, not 220. Intellectual stimulation is one thing, but if we are blind to the facts staring us in the face (e.g. numerical data) then the conclusions reached on our intellectual journey will most likely be incorrect.

Absolute trust in a system with no independant thought can only lead to trouble since it is so easy for those in control of the system to make it say what ever they want (Enron?), or for poor designing to risk the life of a driver and pets. Computers should be tools to gather information and present it to us so that we can reach an educated conclusion, not machines that do the thinking for us.

Angus
 
Angus said:
To me, this is a clear case of letting a computer do the thinking for you and not understanding how it works. Is this our future? Are we to become so reliant on machines that we cannot think for ourselves? This guy is an engineer, and yet he now cannot comprehend the simple act of finding an average.

Angus said:
Oddly enough, by explaining the methodology of fuel consumption calculations, you have sort of proven my point.

Then you are misunderstanding me. Your first argument was that your friend's mind had been gobbled up by faith in computers. My response was that he may, in fact, have a deeper understanding of the concept than yourself.

Angus said:
My issue here, as Wrath points out, is that there is a lapse of thinking when a person ignores the fact that their odometer actually reads 260 miles, not 220.

As opposed to the person who ignores their MPG gauge? I know, it is a difficult concept. Allow me to beat the dead horse by proffering another analogy: if you wish to compute average MPH, would you use a formula like MPHa = (d2 - d1)/t? Is your friend, who states that his average MPH is X - supported by the fact that X is what his speedometer predominantly reads - suffering from mental apathy just because his results are wildly different from yours?

The remaining rhetoric about man vs. machine and the need to know is cute, but we shouldn't take it too seriously, lest we find ourselves limited to sitting naked in the dark with crummy shelter, bad food, and poor brew. What better way to get a first look than to stand on the shoulders of a giant?

Cheers,
mmi
 
mminuet said:
Then you are misunderstanding me. Your first argument was that your friend's mind had been gobbled up by faith in computers. My response was that he may, in fact, have a deeper understanding of the concept than yourself.

I think you misunderstood me a little. I was actually saying that your desire to "think" was the important point, not whether your math was justification for me being correct. Let me also add here that he did not see that an average could be found by dividing the distance by the fuel consumed. His faith was in the readout of a computer, and he was unwilling to listen to the particular use of words that defined what we were talking about, that word being 'average'.

mminuet said:
As opposed to the person who ignores their MPG gauge? I know, it is a difficult concept. Allow me to beat the dead horse by proffering another analogy: if you wish to compute average MPH, would you use a formula like MPHa = (d2 - d1)/t? Is your friend, who states that his average MPH is X - supported by the fact that X is what his speedometer predominantly reads - suffering from mental apathy just because his results are wildly different from yours?

The example of MPG was just that, an example. I was really not looking for a debate over the mathematics of fuel consumption. I used it to raise the point about our growing reliance on computers at the expense of independant thought. I am also not questioning your math.

mminuet said:
The remaining rhetoric about man vs. machine and the need to know is cute, but we shouldn't take it too seriously, lest we find ourselves limited to sitting naked in the dark with crummy shelter, bad food, and poor brew. What better way to get a first look than to stand on the shoulders of a giant?

Careful here. I am in no way pitting man against machine. After all, I am writing this on a computer, I work in an engineering firm, and I love machines. The cute rhetoric is in fact the core of my observation, not the math surrounding the MPG. If man only relies upon the technical readout of a computer, then he is destined to be sitting in the dark. Man must constantly question the data obtained through observation and measurement, including those provided by computers, in order to reach a logical conclusion that can be used to further scientific knowledge. Total reliance on machines, with no willingness to think for oneself, is the road to "garbage in, garbage out". After all, we are the ones who are designing the machines in the first place.

My question, open for debate, is whether we, as a society, are putting too much faith in computers and are no longer willing to think for ourselves.

Angus
 
The baby woke me up three times last night, so bear that in mind while reading this, it might get weird . . . :) :)

So the working theory by Angus is that the more we have things that simplify our life and complicate it at the same time (think internet and computers), the less we are inclined to think. My thoughts:

1. There are always stupid people. Not naming names, not calling names, just saying from time immemorial, there always have been and there always will be people who refuse to think.

2. No one person can know EVERYTHING. Even the eminently learned men of the Rennaisance, who knew a great deal on a great variety of subjects, did not know everything, nor even everything there was to know at the time. Therefore, has the person who can discuss Shakespeare but relies on a calculator to add 2+3 given up the ability to think? Or have they merely chosen not to add that particular tidbit of information to the masses of information in their easy recall. I do not hold the capacious knowledge about meadmaking that Oskaar does - does that mean that I have refrained from thinking about it or doing it? Nope. Personally, right now, I don't care HOW I make a good mead, I just want to make them.

I find a big difference between CHOOSING to not delve into the intricacies of everything you come in contact with and lacking the ABILITY. I CHOOSE to remain ignorant of some things. Sorry, guys, I have a life, a husband, 2 kids and about a zillion different hobbies. Ask me about beadworking someday, and you will see me in my "element". Meadmaking, though? This is for fun and for having a tasty brew or twenty. *big grins*

3. Anybody who has been on a PC for longer than a year should have lost ALL faith in computers and their ability to think. Or stay running. . . . Have I mentioned lately that I love my mini? And that it hasn't crashed on me at all in the almost year that I have had it? *grins* Even my linux box couldn't say that.

And mmi - my goddess, stop the calculus!!! My brain, my poor defenseless brain! *big grins*
 
While I've no experience in calculus or engineering, I seem to recall a conversation with a friend of mine (he and I work in the same metal pattern {think tool and die} shop) about averages and a statistics class he particpated in. I think the differences being spoken of is the difference between mean and median averages. My mind set sees more value in the sum of a set of numbers divided by the number of numbers in the set (mean average- 200 miles traveled/10 gallons of gas= 20mpg). If I'm not making sense to anyone who knows better, keep in mind I'm drinking an average of one pint of freshly made Golden Bough Braggot per 20 minutes for the past 2 hours. Some pints went faster, some slower, but in two hours, 6 pints went bottoms up. My friend's favorite quote from that statistics class? "Figures lie and liars figure"..go figure.
Jon
 
Ok, time for more loose change...

About the correctness of the mileage numbers, I'm a little on the fence. The more practically useful MPG number is, to me, the # gallons gas bought/# miles traveled. It has direct bearing on your wallet, whereas the number on the screen really doesn't. However, one must consider that the car computer can also be correct, since it is presumably calculating the number of miles traveled as a direct result of burning a gallon of gas. Other factors make the car move (gravity, momentum, etc) that do not require gas, so it's certainly possible for the numbers to differ.

To the math, I'm of the mind that the instantaneous average (if that's what the car computer is giving) should be, on average (haha), the gas pump average. Driving around in a friend's Prius today, going downhill the "instantaneous" MPG was 99.9 (the display limit). Uphill it was around 18. I'm sure at the pump it's somewhere in between. And certainly no one was claiming to get 99 MPG in their Prius just because the computer said so. All the calculus talk seems to me superfluous. Averages generally require little math, and calculus really isn't that exciting, if you want to quote higher math concepts. (I'm an engineering PhD student who knows precious little math, but calculus I do understand.)

And I agree very much with Angus on the whole "refusing to think" idea. Every so often I catch myself grabbing a calculator to add, and I think "why do I need a calculator? Am I that dumb?" Yup, I am, though I usually still put the damn thing down and spend 2 seconds doing it myself. It's just easier to not think, and so people don't. I'm guilty of it; I'm sure we all are. Personally I think the reason it's getting worse (and I think it is, considering the developed world as a whole) is because there are few consequences to believing the machines. 5000 years ago, if we believed everything we saw blindly, no questions, we'd be dead. Now it's no big deal (from a life/death standpoint). Call it evolution :)
 
Asking me about numbers and math is universally a bad idea my brain isn't wired that way but I had a thought about all this calculating and number crunching.
Has anyone thought to factor in weight. The more that vehicle weighs the harder the engine has to runs to move it so the more gas it uses. Where is this weight coming from?

The gas.

I don't know the exact weight of say twenty gallons of gas but I can tell the difference in the way my truck moves when the tank is full verses when it is near empty.
Going back and forth to work is a short trip for me but in a weeks time I use enough to have just under a half a tank come Friday. I guess that would be around five eighths of a tank used in a week.
From a half tank in a weeks driving I end up with just below a quarter which would be a fuel use of three eighths of a tank.
The only difference is the weight of the truck. I drive the same roads and have to stop at nearly the same lights every day. Same driving habits, same miles per hour.

Now as for thinking for yourself.

It's a provable fact the past thirty years of warning labels have let the stupid people live long enough to breed! Think I'm wrong? The smartest people in our society are suppose to be the rocket scientists. Why did NASA crash a billion dollar space explorer into Mars? Because one group did their calculations in meters and the other group did theirs in feet.
And no body checked it before it launched.
Of course I can't say I'm any better than they are. I'm in a group where several times a year we go live like where homeless and the main enjoyment is to let another person hit you with a stick.
::)
Tarot.
 
Akeueck, nicely put! I agree with you about the math. When I was a Medical Technologist I used to run freezing point depression, osmolarity/osmolality and a bunch of other stuff in my head on the fly because it was part of my every day routine. It didn't really equate to a facilty for math or higher chemistry (although I minored in Chemistry) calculations as much as it was a function of simple rote. I still run simple stuff in my head but when it comes to hammering out a bunch of numbers I'll fire up a spreadsheet or run the calculator. ;)

MT, you can really get involved with variables that affect the overall mileage with things like you mentioned such as weight as well as drag coefficient, tire size, tire inflation, alignment, front or rear wheel drive, four wheel drive, etc. etc. I tend to be bluntly pragmatic and just figure out how far I drove, and how much gas was consumed in the trip. From there I pretty much know everything I'm interested in knowing because ultimately that's going to equate to how many floozies will be attending the after-party for the next Exxon/Mobile board/stockholder meeting.

Cheers,

Oskaar
 
I think that technology has devolved humans, as far as their capacity for basic reasoning and abstract thought are concerned.

Take, for instance, the onset of the computer age and, along with it, the advent of "spell checker." Along comes this nifty little thing that tells you if something is spelled right or wrong, so you no longer have to worry about it. Dictionary sales plummet. The world falls into chaos... Why?

No one know how to spell, anymore...

How do I know? Because the computer knows that "no" is spelled correctly, but NOT that the writer has MEANT to type in "know."

Or "there," "their," and "they're."
Or "your" and "you're."
Or the fact that, just because there is more than one thing, a great many people add an apostrophe when, in fact, they do not mean, in any way, shape, or form, to imply possession.

Do you have a Sam's Club in your area? Go check the sign in front. It should say something like "Its About the Savings," or something like that. They actually forgot the apostrophe! No one seems to know when to put one in, and when to leave it out!!!

The written word is a lost art, and I believe that it will eventually lead to a collapse of our communications, be they interpersonal or otherwise. As our language devolves, our society will follow...

And you were all worried about gas mileage...
 
Hey Delt!

You're right about the devolution of grammar and spelling and its relation to the rise of automated spelling and grammar checkers. In the days of yore (couldn’t resist throwing another “yore” into the mix) the fundamentals of spelling and grammar were drilled into your head by stern faced matrons or even ruler wielding nuns who would mete out swift hickory justice in a flash if you didn’t follow their game plan. I went to parochial school (and had a dubious flirtation with parochial-military school) and to me it’s really interesting to see the curriculum out there at now at the similar grade levels as when I attended “Grammar School.” We were learning to read and write Greek, Latin and English along with grammar and composition at a pretty early age. We were expected to spell correctly when writing out our Latin and Greek translations, and we were graded down when our grammar, punctuation or spelling were wrong in any of the languages.

So to have automated tools is very nice, but it’s still incumbent upon the writer to make the necessary changes or corrections for composition and readability. I think a lot of folks just get lazy and as suggested below take it on faith that the automated tools relieve them of any responsibility for style, substance or form. Regardless of that, I still see so many spelling and grammar errors in emails because many people don’t even bother to use the automated tools available to them to at least make it look like they can spell and compose.

Cheers,

Oskaar
 
Strictly regarding the spelling, grammar, and language issues involved, and stepping slowly and carefully around the MPG debate (which, as Angus points out, is actually beside the point entirely), I believe we are in a period of rapid evolution -- both of society and of the very fabric of language.

I agree that the ability to spell and compose sentences is fading away. This is not a new phenomenon, though. One only has to read the correspondences of people, say, 150 years ago, to see a basic difference. The letters of Civil War soldiers, for instance -- and not of the so-called "educated men" at the front, but just the average men from farms and cities across the country -- were astonishingly eloquent by modern standards. This difference didn't just occur with the advent of computers; it's been an ongoing process of change in our society, and not an erosion of thought or culture.

Language is an exceptionally dynamic thing, and it will change as the times and cultures of it's users do. Words come and go as required by people -- as do the rules of grammar. Many Victorian-era sentences would be considered run ons and poorly formed if written today. And I, too, find the misuse of words like "your, you're, and yore" to be difficult to read.

But let's be honest for a moment: having three words that are spelled similarly and pronounced the same, yet which have entirely different meanings is ridiculous! This is not intuitive by any means and it's hardly necessary, as constructed languages like Esperanto prove out. We tend to consider a person who cannot use these words correctly in written communication as being at least somewhat ignorant -- and I suppose they are as far as that goes.

But today's English will not be tomorrow's, and technological influences like spellcheck programs will have a place in that evolution -- just as the printing press had an eventual influence in codifying the English language (acting mostly as a spur by making the written word more and more common in everyday life, and thus, starkly illuminating a very real need to make the spelling and construction of it less idiosyncratic and easier to read).

Angus' friend was convinced his car's computer was right, and more-or-less refused to hear any counter-arguments. Has he given up on thinking, and turned over his decisions to a machine? Well, possibly, but throughout all of human history, at all technological and sociological levels of progress and decay, there have always been stubborn men. You could just as easily make the argument that technology is the new religion for many people, and that some of them are dogged, even pig-headed, in their blind faith in it. There's always been something that some people have had perfect trust in for less-than-logical reasons. Very often they're right (if for no other reason than statistical chance), and this only reinforces their opinion...or the object of their faith fails them somehow, but this failure is put down to some prejustified reason or other, which, again, only reinforces their view. It isn't until there has been a shift in society as a whole that you see the old faith fade as a new one comes along to replace it, because there will always be a new one to replace it.

I don't know this guy, of course, so I can't speak to his personality, but I've met people who act this way -- some of them quite smart and/or highly educated -- and it mostly comes down to temperament and worldview, I think. And I'd hazard to say that if you had a time machine, you'd find lots of people, both in the past and the future, who do the same thing. Computers are tools, and you either trust in your tools and your ability to utilize them, or you don't. And you either have an open mind about them or you don't. This comes from experience and personality, I believe, and not from laziness.

Going back to the language issue for a moment; why do you suppose we see CEO's and important world leaders today, in addition to ordinary folks, who can't spell or construct sentences worth a damn? You can say it's the schools or the influence of technology or the alignment of the stars, but the plain fact is nobody cares. It's not very important anymore to most people if you can string two words together -- that's seen mostly as a specialized skill or talent, much like plumbing or electrical work, which can be hired out or delegated if deemed absolutely necessary, or ignored if not. And few people have a problem with this anymore, because if they did, it wouldn't be tolerated. In days of yore, people who filled their letters with misspellings and bad sentence construction would have never risen in any organization. But in this day and age, why bother sweating over details like proper English spellings or transposed words when you have spellcheck and a secretary or intern to take care of those details; or even if they don't take care of them, few people will even mind or notice?

What's important to us today is different than what was important yesterday, and different still from what was important the day before. It stands to reason, then, that tomorrow's values will be equally as alien. We're not likely to find the change a comfortable one; but someone, someday, will look back at our time now with surprise, wonder, and maybe some envy for our abilities. And like our current lament for the fading of certain skills in our society (read that, changing times), the admiration of us by future generations will likely tell more about what they value -- or even romanticize -- than it will about what we do now.

Yeesh! This is disgustingly long! My apologies to anyone who made it this far!

-David