Why add fruit to primary?

[Docsab]

So newbee here with 4 batches of melomel rocket fuel under my belt. Two of the batches being a ginger peach and an orange spice. I have used fruit in the primary only with the end result of having very little of the fruit/spice taste after 3-4 months aging so far. I understand adding fruit to the secondary will give more of the taste I am looking for in the end result and also realize a longer aging may bring out more subtle fruit flavors(and hopefully tame the rocket fuel into something remotely palatable). However my question is why add fruit to the primary at all? The alcohol fermented from the fruit sugars will taste the same as that from the honey. Is it a question of adding tannins for better mouth feel? Does 2 weeks or so of fruit being in the primary make much difference?

Does the mead lose some complexity by just using honey/water yeast in the primary and adding desired fruit/spices into the secondary?

Thanks for your input. This forum has taught me a lot.

 

[Squatchy]

So newbee here with 4 batches of melomel rocket fuel under my belt. Two of the batches being a ginger peach and an orange spice. I have used fruit in the primary only with the end result of having very little of the fruit/spice taste after 3-4 months aging so far. I understand adding fruit to the secondary will give more of the taste I am looking for in the end result and also realize a longer aging may bring out more subtle fruit flavors(and hopefully tame the rocket fuel into something remotely palatable). However my question is why add fruit to the primary at all? The alcohol fermented from the fruit sugars will taste the same as that from the honey. Is it a question of adding tannins for better mouth feel? Does 2 weeks or so of fruit being in the primary make much difference?

Does the mead lose some complexity by just using honey/water yeast in the primary and adding desired fruit/spices into the secondary?

Thanks for your input. This forum has taught me a lot.

I would suggest an experiment. Plan on three meads to be made with the exact same everything. The only difference would be when you add the fruit. So

Batch one, add all the fruit up front.
Batch two. Add half of the fruit up front and the other half on the backside.
Batch three. Add all the fruit after you have stabilized your mead.
Batch 4. Add a certain amount from batch one. Add the same volume from batch 3. Blend them.

All of them will taste different. This way, you can taste for yourself. And be easily compared to the others. This way, you will learn when/how to incorporate your fruit adds to get to where you want to go with your flavor profile.

Lastly, you said your other meads were rocket fuel. That happens when you don't have a scientific protocol to follow to get great-tasting meads with zero rocket fuel in them.

Start here. Grab a paper and a pen,,, Start on the gotmead podcast. On 8/29/17

You will learn what I do and why.

 

[Docsab]

Thanks Squatchy. I certainly intend on making many more batches adding fruit at different times in the process to see what works for me. From my reading of vastly different ways proposed by numerous individuals the one clear message that comes through is that meadmaking is a journey that moves in a unique direction for each person as they become more experienced and find what works for themselves. Just read Zimmerman's "Make Mead Like a Viking" and gained a very different perspective on the usual methods I see described here and on Reddit. No absolute right or wrong way, just different approaches.

In any case, just wondering scientifically how adding the fruit changes the mead in the primary vs the secondary. I'll know what I like when tasting but interesting to know the reason behind it. Thanks again.

 

[4give]

Hi Doscab,
Solid advice from Squatchy --> Not only will you need a pen, but I had to listen to sections quite a few times.

Zimmerman's methods are interesting, and it's possible that's how they really did it. Personally, I see far too many pitfalls to that method. Mainly, there's really no way you have any idea how it will turn out. Might be great, might stink, might need 5 years of aging out flaws. That said, things can go wrong even with good protocols and trying to pair yeast(s) with your honey and other ingredients; BUT you'll likely learn more and have a better chance at quality mead with modern protocols and trials.

This is just me, but I really try to remember that I like honey, and I want honey notes in my mead. For this reason, I really try not to use too much of other ingredients, but shoot for flavor nuances. I don't think in terms of making a 'fruit bomb' of any type. I have a peach-vanilla working right now, and my goal will be for peach notes with slight vanilla, and maybe some peach aroma if I'm lucky (it smells great right now). I want the honey notes to come forward, not be shut out by too much vanilla (as peach can be pretty delicate, it will be hard to override the honey with peach flavor - I think ).

Your mileage may vary, but to me, fruit in the primary becomes more of a nuance of the mead instead of a flavor of it. As stated, it depend on what you're shooting for in your mead profile. Also know that the test Squatchy refers to can be replicated ad nauseum. Different fruits will give different flavors. Easiest example I can think of is wine grapes. Taste wine grape juice of a Zinfandel, and then ferment it. To me, it's nearly a totally different flavor. There's infinite variables to the art, so I just have fun doing what I can with the time that I have. After 5 years, most of what I've made turns out pretty good (IMO, which is the really the only one that matters )

I've been to a couple commercial meaderies where they essentially use one yeast, one honey, and one protocol to make a Traditional, then add any flavorings in secondary. While the meads I tried there were decent, they weren't something I'd want to pay much for.

Happy testing!

 

[Docsab]

I see your point regarding Zimmerman. No reproducibility with all those wild yeasts.

" There's infinite variables to the art, so I just have fun doing what I can with the time that I have". That statement really says a lot. I read so many different recipes and try to shoot for certain flavors and become disappointed in the process. I imagine through experimentation as you and Squatchy mention, I will find my road and there will be no absolutes- such as fruit in the primary or secondary- only what works for me. I think I was looking for personal experiences regarding the process and results as you guys have been at this for years. Your comment regarding the commercial meaderies was interesting. Fruit in the primary may not add a great deal to flavor but perhaps adds other more subtle nuances.

I am a backyard beekeeper and use only the honey my bees make so the stuff is like liquid gold to me- hard to expend much on a lot of different tests- I only have 2 hives lol. But I am an adventurer by heart so I look forward to continue trying different techniques and learning. I started a batch of lemon ginger this weekend but it probably will be the last until pollen flow in the spring.

So I need to ask you 4give, your peach vanilla that you have going- Vanilla and peach in primary/ secondary or both?

 

[Chevette Girl]

Hehe, another adventurer at heart, welcome to the club. I'm old to mead (coming up on 19 years) but new to bees (second year now).

I pretty much do all my batches with fruit in primary, because I came from a winemaking background, where if you don't ferment your fruit... you have fruit juice. Or fermented sugar water... I guess what I'm saying is the mental exercise is, do you want mead with the flavour you get from fruit juice added, or the flavour you get from wine added? Grape juice is a very different thing from wine, just as apple juice is a very different thing from hard cider. And in my experience, blackberries have zero taste UNTIL they're fermented (might just be me, I admit to being a weirdo, Squatchy can attest to that!!)

And you did cite that you've got rocket fuel, that may well be masking fruit flavour to some extent too. Without seeing your recipes, I can't tell if you tried to go way too alcoholic or if you used a yeast known for making rocket fuel without temperature control, but that may well be another factor. Try deglazing a pan with a splash of it, or poaching some mild fruit with some and give a sniff, I have one dry cherry wine that tastes like nothing at all until it's heated.

Peach is one I haven't tried (I don't live where they grow and when they're in season I'm too busy eating them to ferment them) but from reading what others have said over the years about using peaches, it's extremely subtle and it can be difficult to get a lot of flavour from peaches, so if I were going to try making peach mead, that would be one fruit I would definitely reserve some fruit for secondary in case the flavour is lost to primary.

I usually find orange flavour comes through fermentation quite well, but without seeing your recipe, I can't tell whether you used the zest or not, and if you didn't, well, there's nearly no orange flavour in orange juice compared to adding the zest of the orange, and that's not just with winemaking/meadmaking, I learned that one from making grapefruit preserves that tasted like very sweet nothing because I only used the fruit and not any of the zest.

My first batch of mead from my own honey is going to be using what I drained off the cappings, plus the rinse water from the cappings. If you're experimenting, there is literally nothing wrong with doing bench trials with Costco honey, or whatever you can get at an acceptable price if your own liquid gold is too precious to experiment with, but I'd highly suggest trying at least one traditional with it just so you have a baseline for how your honey tastes fermented and how sweet or dry you prefer it, it's good knowledge to have before you start playing with fruit. Sometimes when something's too dry, the flavours are kind of muted too, especially if it's kinda rocket fuelly.

 

[Docsab]

Hi Chevette Girl! Thanks for the insights! My orange recipe used sliced oranges without any zest and you are quite correct on the absence of orange flavor in the mead- maybe a hint in the aftertaste if I concentrate very hard . However, I did use lemon zest in my most recent recipe so I am hoping for a better outcome- I already am smelling strong lemon notes in the CO2 bubbling off. All my batches so far have used Lavlin 71D- not sure if that is of the notorious rocket fuel class, so I tried Red Star Premier Blanc this time. I will also try to refine the taste better when I rack- paying attention to the flavor and make adjustments to acid/tannin levels and possible add zest to the secondary- previously I stuck very close to the recipes but am more comfortable experimenting now. Frustrating to do a lot of research and think you are doing all the right things and keep getting rocket fuel haha- but that is the price of learning.

Your point regarding fermented sugars is in line with 4give's comment regarding commercial meaderies using only flavoring in the secondary- I am understanding now the added complexity fruit in the primary gives rather than just looking for a heightened fruit note from adding in the secondary. I thought my ginger peach was going to be a peach party as my son brought me some fresh peaches from Georgia that were incredible but again they were lost in the primary (and overpowered by the fuel as you mentioned lol)

Good luck getting your bees through the winter- I imagine it is much tougher in Ottawa than here in Philly. I already lost one hive. I have over 3 acres of white clover through the season which my neighbors hate but my bees love so guess who gets preference? I will admit the whole reason I got into beekeeping was to make mead- I tired of making homebrew beer years ago and mead sounded very interesting- So here I am 4 years later finally with my first good harvest of the most amazing honey I ever tasted! Half goes to my friends and family and half to making mead. I have stumbled through all the classic beginner Beek mistakes so if you have any questions don't hesitate to reach out!

 

[4give]

@Doscab - I'm trying a something a bit different with this peach/vanilla mead as far as the 'peach' part goes. I'll elaborate on that in a different post (maybe the mead log) later, but to answer your question, I'm doing a little peach in primary, and the vanilla in secondary. My thought is that a little peach in primary will provide a slight peach nuance, but hopefully some good aroma. I'll then add peach in secondary to hopefully get the peach nuance I'm shooting for. My guess is a little malic and/or citric acid may be needed to make the peach pop a bit more (maybe even some lemon zest, but not enough to get lemony). I was searching for just pure peach juice and noticed many of them had lemon added to get the peach flavor to pop. It's so strange because anyone who's had a good, juicy, peach knows that that great peach flavor. I'm going to have to be careful with the vanilla. I'm going to use some grade A Mexican vanilla beans in secondary, but I don't want to overpower the peach. I also have some home made extracts of other vanilla bean types that I may supplement with (Madagascar, Uganda, Ecuador). I plan on using French oak cubes in medium toast as well.
One of my first batches was a peach-vanilla mead. It was good, but it did need more 'peach', and I think I kept the medium+ American oak on it too long.
I'm about ready to rack out of primary, and both batches (each with a different yeast) smell great - still holding on to a slight peach aroma, so there's hope .

@Doscab and @Chevette Girl - I'm a bit more than a backyard beekeeper - more of a side gig and hobby since 2014. Maintained up to 17 colonies at one point, and downsizing now as it was too time consuming and I'm not retired, so the 'real job' has to take precedence. I've never stopped learning, and still make mistakes. I use my honey as well, and this year wasn't the best flow, but every year's honey has always been a bit different. This year's harvest seems to be more fruity, so I figured it would be a good year to try the peach-vanilla again.

@Chevette Girl - I typically have to rinse cappings at least 3 times to clean them enough for any beeswax processing. The water always smells so good. I've drank some before too! You're likely thinking this already, but I would recommend treating the rinse water from the cappings with some k-meta before using it in mead. I would imagine that the risk of all kinds of 'baddies' to get in that rinse water is very high. I've seen capping water start to ferment from wild yeast. I'm not sure how you're set up for harvest, extraction, etc., but it typically isn't the 'cleanest' water either, so maybe a rough filtering may be needed too. All that said, I'd be interested in what you do with it for mead and how it turns out.

 

[Squatchy]

Thanks Squatchy. I certainly intend on making many more batches adding fruit at different times in the process to see what works for me. From my reading of vastly different ways proposed by numerous individuals the one clear message that comes through is that meadmaking is a journey that moves in a unique direction for each person as they become more experienced and find what works for themselves. Just read Zimmerman's "Make Mead Like a Viking" and gained a very different perspective on the usual methods I see described here and on Reddit. No absolute right or wrong way, just different approaches.

In any case, just wondering scientifically how adding the fruit changes the mead in the primary vs the secondary. I'll know what I like when tasting but interesting to know the reason behind it. Thanks again.

He Docsab

So one thing to ponder. Each of the different nuances you get from the fruit timing is a different fraction of the overall flavor profile. It's no, one or the other. But different choices for different results. Or combinations thereof. I almost never do a melomel or payment without using fruit in primary to establish a base. And then, if I want a stronger fruit presence, then I add juice after it's stable. For the most part, I think I only make a trad. And then add fruits later is if the fruit is very delicate. I made an absolutely wonderful Manderine/Rosemary. And a few times I used just a blend of pepper Corns. With this type of faint additions, I did make a traditional for each type that I thought would marry well with my additions. And of course, I also considered the yeast as well. Hopefully, with the idea of all of the fractions contributing to the overall presentation. A pure guess is as unpredictable as picking the numbers for a lottery. I try to teach to pick all of the fractions to add to the experience.

Personally. I wouldn't waste any time with Zimmerman's ideas. I want control of my mead-making. As well as tweaking an idea to get max result. I've made over 150 different meads I came up with by myself ( and stopped counting after that) But if I chose to I would like to be able to count on reproducing the same mead with the idea to tweak it better each time. To date, I've made less than 20 of my meads over more than once. But now, I do want to take my best twenty-five or so and dial them into a place I could expect to win accolades. However. I don't really have any interest in competitions anymore. I mean, at some point they don't really give that much buzz anymore. It's very expensive to play the game all year long and the judging can be very disappointing. I would like to still win a few more rewards from one competition, but other than that I'm done. Not being critical here. Just speaking honestly. Which has always been important to me. But I have had some backlash from people in the past

 

[Docsab]

Thanks Squatchy, makes a lot of sense. I have been listening to the GotMead Podcasts and have learned a lot about the correct way to do things. Amazing how misleading all these mead making videos on YouTube are. Also, I also would like to develop a small handful of "go to" meads and realize that I can never do that with all the variables in Zimmerman's style. For those following this thread regarding fruit in primary vs secondary, Squatchy discusses it in more depth on the 11/14/17 GotMead Podcast.

So I am looking forward to making less rocket fuel in the future. I think the next important issue is to learn the different tastes in order to know how to alter/fix them. I am still not sure if I am tasting a fusel vs high acid vs low tannin but I imagine that will just come with experience. I am thinking my rocket fuels are maybe high fusels from yeast stress and probably some increased acid from the fruits. Maybe I'll take some samples and play with them a bit to try to get better flavor.

I imagine the competitions can be a frustrating experience. Mead quality seems to be such a personal taste. I am sure all the finalists are well balanced/fermented meads but perhaps made to best suit the taste of the meadmaker. I can imagine making numerous batches of a mead, tweaking it to get specific desired qualities you would enjoy but perhaps the flavor palate of a judge is slightly different and he/she would choose another mead more to his/her liking. I think that would be frustrating to me. In any case, I look forward to you perfecting that batch of 25 meads so I can enjoy them when you go commercial

 

[Squatchy]

Thanks Squatchy, makes a lot of sense. I have been listening to the GotMead Podcasts and have learned a lot about the correct way to do things. Amazing how misleading all these mead making videos on YouTube are. Also, I also would like to develop a small handful of "go to" meads and realize that I can never do that with all the variables in Zimmerman's style. For those following this thread regarding fruit in primary vs secondary, Squatchy discusses it in more depth on the 11/14/17 GotMead Podcast.

So I am looking forward to making less rocket fuel in the future. I think the next important issue is to learn the different tastes in order to know how to alter/fix them. I am still not sure if I am tasting a fusel vs high acid vs low tannin but I imagine that will just come with experience. I am thinking my rocket fuels are maybe high fusels from yeast stress and probably some increased acid from the fruits. Maybe I'll take some samples and play with them a bit to try to get better flavor.

I imagine the competitions can be a frustrating experience. Mead quality seems to be such a personal taste. I am sure all the finalists are well balanced/fermented meads but perhaps made to best suit the taste of the meadmaker. I can imagine making numerous batches of a mead, tweaking it to get specific desired qualities you would enjoy but perhaps the flavor palate of a judge is slightly different and he/she would choose another mead more to his/her liking. I think that would be frustrating to me. In any case, I look forward to you perfecting that batch of 25 meads so I can enjoy them when you go commercial

Hi again

SO fusels alcohol is usually very synthetic tasting. Rubber, paint thinner, chemical, etc. Usually, this is due to bad temps, low YAN (food for the yeast to eat) and possibly underpitching ( in theory) not enough yeast to start out with. Basically, anything that causes the yeast to become unhappy.
The lack of tannins will not cause an unpleasant smell or flavor.
Very rarely could you even make a mead that is too acidic. You would need to mess that up with acid additions, for the most part. Or have strong amounts of some addition that is super high in acids.
A good judge will/should judge a mead correctly in spite of whether they personally like the flavors or not. Good judges can easily do that. The entry also has some required info that needs to be declared. So you then judge the mead based on the declaration, the category it is in. And lastly, if the fermentation was cleanly made. Or has specific flaws. You should never hear something such as. "This should have more peach flavor". How in the hell would one man know if the creator has the amount of peach he wants in his own mead? For example. There used to be a lot of crap meads in the competitions. Not so much so now thanks to the internet. But there is always a big difference between a good mead and a magical one. The magic is what we all search for. Just like a big hit in the music industry.

Very few meaderies last. And the ones that do are a lot of times labors of love. It's a brutal business. And I have no desire to own one. I would like to work in a few of them however