Licensing to Start a Meadery/Brewery?

[Angelic Alchemist]

That might be the stupidest thing I've heard, and makes me all the less likely to go into business on mead...(not because I haven't the capital for it(i don't), no, no, I just can't abide by stupid laws)(plus I'd be your competition, which I'm not at all interested in)

I just read an article about how FDA officials are busting raw milk cow share clubs (instead of, you know, spending our tax dollars on important stuff) because of the hidden agendas to keep the money in what people are now calling "Big Dairy" -- the corruption is everywhere!

I really wish the government would stop telling me what to eat and drink under the guise of protecting me. Just call a spade a spade, and a monopoly a monopoly. I think I'll go drink a bitter almond and raw milk smoothie in spite!

 

[Fisher kel Tath]

I just read an article about how FDA officials are busting raw milk cow share clubs (instead of, you know, spending our tax dollars on important stuff) because of the hidden agendas to keep the money in what people are now calling "Big Dairy" -- the corruption is everywhere!

I really wish the government would stop telling me what to eat and drink under the guise of protecting me. Just call a spade a spade, and a monopoly a monopoly. I think I'll go drink a bitter almond and raw milk smoothie in spite!

But...but...where are you going to get your daily dose of hormone additives?

 

[dr9]

I just read an article about how FDA officials are busting raw milk cow share clubs (instead of, you know, spending our tax dollars on important stuff) because of the hidden agendas to keep the money in what people are now calling "Big Dairy" -- the corruption is everywhere!

I really wish the government would stop telling me what to eat and drink under the guise of protecting me. Just call a spade a spade, and a monopoly a monopoly. I think I'll go drink a bitter almond and raw milk smoothie in spite!

Last year there was a state crackdown on a local co-op here in Athens for selling unpasteurized milk from South Carolina. It's legal in South Carolina, so the co-op got it legally in SC and then distributed in GA, big no-no. Big time fail.

 

[Angelic Alchemist]

But...but...where are you going to get your daily dose of hormone additives?

So what you're saying is that everything the government tells me is for my own good and that I shouldn't form opinions on what I really want? *smacks forehead* Damn! Someone get me a lite beer and an American made car, stat!

 

[Medsen Fey]

While I am deeply concerned about the Federal government's unceasing march toward controlling aspects of my daily life that only Chairman Mao, or Stalin could truly appreciate, there is something to be said in favor of pasteurized milk.

The transmission of tuberculosis from cattle to humans has been know for centuries. In fact, it is theorized that Mycobacterium Tuberculosis, the primary human form, was originally transmitted from cattle with the dawn of domestication. The principal form of tuberculosis in cattle is Mycobacterium Bovis, which can be transmitted to humans from close contact with with animals (including deer and elk in addition to cattle), and from ingesting contaminated milk.

If you are interested, there is a good review of the topic in Emerg Infect Dis. 1998 Jan-Mar;4(1):59-70, entitled Zoonotic Tuberculosis due to Mycobacterium bovis in Developing Countries. In the developed world, screening of cattle herds, and pasteurization have greatly reduced the risk of contracting TB through milk products. The fact that infants and children are among the highest risk for contracting TB, having their milk treated to insure safety is a public health measure that probably makes sense especially given the rapid spreading of of antibiotic resistance in TB organisms.

If someone want to keep a milk cow and drink fresh, unpasteurized milk, and is willing to take that risk, I personally believe they should be allowed. On the other hand, selling the product to others is a different story. I believe it is still possible to buy unpasteurized milk from dairy cattle that have been tested and are free from TB, but I haven't gone looking for any so I'm not sure about availability.

 

[Angelic Alchemist]

There are a handful of states where it is legal to sell raw milk and the farmer has to be able to demonstrate that the milk meets or exceeds quality standards for pasteurized milk.

While I agree that disease control is a good thing, I suspect that this "Big Dairy" industry has gotten used to having the largest slice of the pie and doesn't want that to change. Here in Texas, people buy cow shares because it's not illegal to drink milk from your own cow. However, the FDA is sticking its nose in the State's business by saying "No, you can't do that" rather than paying attention to something that would actually be useful for society.

Money makes the world go round.

 

[Dragonslayer]

Also, you better check with the proper authorities before planting those grape vines... the feds might come in and force you to destroy them. Might I remind you of the Supreme Court decision Wickard v. Filburn...

ZachR, SCOTUS overturned Wickard v. Filburn in 1995 in United States v. Alfonso Lopez, Jr. But that doesn't stop the Fed from trying to intimidate us with the Commerce Clause on a regular basis.

Most of the current laws separating beer, wine and spirits goes back to prohibition. The distinction actually results from lobbying by the medical community. It has only been in the last 20 years or so with the recent growth in the beer and wine industry that many of these old rules have come into question.

Also, during prohibition there was no restriction on home winemaking, only beer. The Volstead Act prohibited only the manufacture, sale and transport of alcohol but not the actual possession and consumption.

Brad - I am not yet a licensed winery/meadery but I have every intent on being one. I already feel an affinity for our industry and market. There are no advocacy groups out there that I am aware of for the craft winery/brewery and I have been thinking about how to start one. This discussion has given me a second purpose for such a group. The first is to tear down the three tier system that unfairly restricts the small producers ability to compete and market directly to consumers. Next is to change the rules so I can call a mead a mead and make a braggot if I want. So when do we start?

 

[akueck]

The first is to tear down the three tier system that unfairly restricts the small producers ability to compete and market directly to consumers. Next is to change the rules so I can call a mead a mead and make a braggot if I want. So when do we start?

That's a tall order. Billions of dollars are riding on that three-tier debacle. Have you visited Free the Grapes?

 

[Dragonslayer]

That's a tall order. Billions of dollars are riding on that three-tier debacle. Have you visited Free the Grapes?

I am a big supporter of Free the Grapes. They do great work.

 

[Brad Dahlhofer]

Brad - I am not yet a licensed winery/meadery but I have every intent on being one. I already feel an affinity for our industry and market. There are no advocacy groups out there that I am aware of for the craft winery/brewery and I have been thinking about how to start one. This discussion has given me a second purpose for such a group. The first is to tear down the three tier system that unfairly restricts the small producers ability to compete and market directly to consumers. Next is to change the rules so I can call a mead a mead and make a braggot if I want. So when do we start?

Those are some pretty lofty goals right there. I'm already making some headway with the TTB regarding labeling restrictions and the names we're allowed to used on our meads. I've been able to make some important contacts there who are starting to take mead seriously and as it's own type of beverage, not just Agricultural Wine. I think that as more of the people here on gotmead.com become commercial meadmakers, we'll finally have the money to support our own trade association. It takes a lot of time (read: money) to explain to, and convince the TTB to make allowances for our craft.

As for abolishing the 3 tier system. Good luck. That's a battle that will not be so easily won. I'd be happy with the smaller win of eliminating the franchise laws.

 

[Dragonslayer]

As for abolishing the 3 tier system. Good luck. That's a battle that will not be so easily won. I'd be happy with the smaller win of eliminating the franchise laws.

I know. You eat an elephant one bite at a time. I got to get started first.

 

[meadmax]

Beer wine braggot etc

I think I can answer this question betterthan anyone on this forum seeing as I am probably the only person to have ever done it.

If you look at the label on any commercial braggot, or ale fermented with honey thats exactly what you'll see on the label. Ale fermented with honey. Any brewery can make a braggot as long as they file the correct statement of process or formula and it is approved.

Regarding a winery using malt, it is correct that a winery may not have malt (in any form) on the premises. So how do companies like Rabbits Foot do it? Go out and get a brewery license and a separate bond etc etc etc. You'll end up basically owning two companies, with two bonds two TTB permits, state permits, filing all the same forms twice a month etc etc etc. Get yourself two buildings or with luck tow rental units with different parts. depending on your state regulations really determines your usage. The feds don't really care. Now, get yourself a third license and rent a part of your facility to your third license and call that your tasting room. Then the third license is an onsale premises and can sell all of the products it buys from the winery or the brewery.


Is it worth it? Well if you make enough money doing it then yes. If your only making a few hundred cases a year then no. Not at all.

Mike
Rabbit's Foot Meadery
Red Branch Cider Company
Red Branch Brewing Company

 

[Dragonslayer]

I think I can answer this question betterthan anyone on this forum seeing as I am probably the only person to have ever done it.

If you look at the label on any commercial braggot, or ale fermented with honey thats exactly what you'll see on the label. Ale fermented with honey. Any brewery can make a braggot as long as they file the correct statement of process or formula and it is approved.

Regarding a winery using malt, it is correct that a winery may not have malt (in any form) on the premises. So how do companies like Rabbits Foot do it? Go out and get a brewery license and a separate bond etc etc etc. You'll end up basically owning two companies, with two bonds two TTB permits, state permits, filing all the same forms twice a month etc etc etc. Get yourself two buildings or with luck tow rental units with different parts. depending on your state regulations really determines your usage. The feds don't really care. Now, get yourself a third license and rent a part of your facility to your third license and call that your tasting room. Then the third license is an onsale premises and can sell all of the products it buys from the winery or the brewery.


Is it worth it? Well if you make enough money doing it then yes. If your only making a few hundred cases a year then no. Not at all.

Mike
Rabbit's Foot Meadery
Red Branch Cider Company
Red Branch Brewing Company

First of all I don't understand why it is this way. How did the rules get to be so stupid? I mean, I get the whole 'moral' argument and the medical industries push pre-prohibition, but why make such restrictions on definition?

So, I have some friends who are in the process, like myself, of getting their licenses. They just happen to be beer makers. This weekend we are collaborating on a braggot. I am providing the mead part, they the malt. At present this is a private venture, however, once we are respectively licensed we have talked about doing a joint braggot. Sounds like it falls under the scenario you described above, but I am sure there is some rule that we will have to deal with that will make this difficult. What say you?

 

[wayneb]

The rules are as crazy as they are because in the time between Prohibition and the present day, various state and local governments along with the feds, figured out that there is much money to be made (tax revenue and licensing/permitting fees) from the "careful" regulation of alcoholic beverage manufacture. Many of the laws now on the books were written with language suggesting that the lawmakers of the day were protecting the public interest, by not allowing a "free for all" of fermentation, but in fact they were more beholden to the fledgling new beer and wine companies that were coming into being (or being resurrected) once Prohibition was repealed. The laws continue to make no sense because today the existing large brewers and winemakers have a vested interest (and lots of lobbyist dollars to protect their interests) in keeping things exactly the way that they are -- because it protects their competitive advantage when they make it next to impossible for anyone else to try something new.

 

[Brad Dahlhofer]

I think I can answer this question better than anyone on this forum seeing as I am probably the only person to have ever done it.

Hi Mike! Glad to see you online.

Love what you're doing. Keep up the good work!

 

[meadmax]

Beer wine braggot etc

The rules and regulations are arcane at best.

In 1994 when I first received my licenses there was no such thing as a 'Meadery'

I'm pretty sure I coined the phrase, at least in the USA. That said, when I tried to make my braggots (under a brewery license) and label them as 'Produced and bottled by Rabbit's Foot Meadery' the TTB said no. The reason - they said was that a 'Meadery is a winery that makes mead'
I asked them to show me where in the regulations it said that and they told me they didn't have to but that the term was now in regular use and thus was restricted to a winery only.

I have a case pending right now to eliminate that restriction as it is a purely marketing term.

Anyway, the regulations are there to keep wineries out of the beerr business and vice verse. The lobbiests from each maintain it that way.

It is easiest to live within the restrictions if you can afford to and follow their rules.

In California it is less restrictive for a tasting room, tavern, etc.

I could rant about this all day.

 

[meadmax]

Beer wine braggot etc

Oh and the FEDERAL and STATE licenses for my brewery have the name 'Rabbit's Foot Meadery' and a d/b/a 'Red Branch Brewing Company' although I can't label them 'Produced by Rabbit's Foot Meadery' they can have the 'fanciful name 'Rabbit's Foot' outside of California. Yes labels can be different if they are only sold in your home state and don't cross state lines EVER>

 

[jblaschke]

First of all I don't understand why it is this way. How did the rules get to be so stupid?

As others have said, it's about competition. This over-regulation, is in a way, capitalism run amok. Big Beer and Big Wine have seen their market share eroding with the growth of microbrews and smaller craft wineries, which is why they fight so hard to keep legal restrictions in place to hamper that segment's growth. Liquor companies are another growing threat to their finances--spirits are a booming segment of the alcohol market in ways that didn't exist a decade ago. With that kind of dog-eat-dog battle going on, is it any wonder that the big beer, wine and liquor interests don't want to see mead become a significant option for the alcohol-consuming public? A mead industry with one foot in a brewery and the other in a winery under a single-licensed roof would be a significant threat to both interests. It doesn't make logical sense, but you can bet there's a lot of corporate money ready to be thrown at congress and state legislatures to ensure laws remain friendly to the big interests and a challenge to smaller independents.

 

[IanB]

Rabbit's Foot

I would have to Agree with Brad and Mike here. The best way to survive (hopefully) is to play within your own sandbox. Mead has an incredibly small marketshare of the alchohol consuming public, the big brands don't give a damn about us making something like a Braggot, but they do give a damn about another large non-beer brand making a fizzy Weer that creates a new market segment that never existed and lures people who drink wine coolers and beer away from the existing established products.

That is why they pay all the money, not because the care about us, it's the fact that if they keep the rules the same, they can keep thier market share the same (or almost the same) and out of the hands of their next largest competitor. What this ultimately equals, is market dominance and influence and power. All three things they wouldn't risk by changing the rules in anyway, no matter who is asking.

Our only hope is to sneak up on them in some way, by grass-roots campaigning and educating the public on what we do and why that matters. Then if mead even gets 1% of 1% of the Market Cap for alcoholic beverages we would be making a HUGE impact. Brad and Mike are doing the right things to get this done and I commend them 100%, I look forward to when I am a contributing member as well.

 

[Fisher kel Tath]

So, just curios, what's the cost out the door to get licensed and permitted and all that?