Barnyard braggot

[WikdWaze]

i apologize if this has been addressed elsewhere but, traditionally braggots are carbonated (not that braggot is really a traditional drink). do you plan on carbonating this recipe? and if so how do you plan on doing so if you are going to run the yeast to the point of their alcohol tolerance?
Just wondering
JMV

Yep, I do plan to carbonate. Exactly how is still a bit of a question. I considered forced carbonation, but I don't have the equipment for it and I'm not sure exactly how to do it when you plan to bottle, everybody does it when they keg a beer. I don't want to have to buy a small keg just to get bubbles in my mead. I thought about just priming it as is usually done since that seems to reactivate yeast that have been chemically stopped, so it might urge on those at their limit as well. My favorite option thus far is a slight modification of the usual technique. It still involves priming with sugar or malt, but also involves slightly diluting the mead. Stand by for another long-winded explanation ;D

Let's say you have 1 gallon of mead at 15% ABV. If you add 12 ounces of sugar water (10% of a gallon) you drop the % ABV to somewhere between 13.5 and 14%. That should give the yeast enough room to slowly reanimate and supply the desired CO2. I think this is actually more controlled than the standard method since you can dilute more or less depending on how much carbonation you want. The downside is that you have to experiment with each recipe to find out how much to dilute it to get what you want. I think I'll give this a shot, pour the priming mix into a bottling bucket, rack the finished mead on top of it to thoroughly mix it, then bottle and wait.

Can't I ever give a simple answer to a simple question? :-[

 

[JoeM]

from personal experience i can tell you that if you push a yeast to its alcohol toleranace you can prime all you want and it will not carbonate. to produce CO2 the yeast must produce alcohol as well and they just arent going to do it if you push them to their limit. Diluting the mead is another issue, i supoose that could work but realize that you will also be diluting the flavor and sweetness of the mead as well, and really i think the results will be unpredictable. I've tried carbonating various ways and have also created quite a few bottle bombs and flat meads in the process...in my experience, fermenting to below the yeasts alcohol tolerance and then priming with measured amounts of priming sugar is the the most controlled, predictable way of attaining the product that you want.

 

[WikdWaze]

from personal experience i can tell you that if you push a yeast to its alcohol toleranace you can prime all you want and it will not carbonate. to produce CO2 the yeast must produce alcohol as well and they just arent going to do it if you push them to their limit. Diluting the mead is another issue, i supoose that could work but realize that you will also be diluting the flavor and sweetness of the mead as well, and really i think the results will be unpredictable. I've tried carbonating various ways and have also created quite a few bottle bombs and flat meads in the process...in my experience, fermenting to below the yeasts alcohol tolerance and then priming with measured amounts of priming sugar is the the most controlled, predictable way of attaining the product that you want.

Yeah, I didn't really hold out much hope for the idea of just priming it and thinking happy thoughts. I figured the yeast wouldn't go past their limit. I don't understand the difference between stopping the yeast at 13%, priming and bottling and my idea of diluting to 13%, priming and bottling. It looks like the exact same idea accomplished two different ways. You're right that it would alter the flavor somewhat, but if the priming solution had the same proportions of honey, malt, and water the difference should be minimal. Forced carbonation would probably be the easiest, most predictable, most controllable method. The only problem is that I have no idea how to do it without a keg and I can't afford to buy all the equipment for it.

 

[JoeM]

when you say "stopping the yeast at 13%, priming and bottling" do you mean stopping the yeast chemically? because once you stop the yeast chemically priming will not produce carbonation. in fact one of the leading reasons to stabilize with sulfites is to prevent refermentation and the production of pressure within the bottle. i apologize if i misunderstood what you were saying.

 

[WikdWaze]

I'm not entirely sure I had a specific method of stopping the yeast in mind. My brain is on the verge of overload these days. I think I'm getting confused with the method for priming a dry mead, and trying to apply it to a sweet mead.

Yup, time for a mental vacation.

 

[JoeM]

the only reason i'm trying to get you to really think about what your going to do is because i've had meads that i have worked on very hard and wanted to be sparkling and screwed up somewhere along the way and they would not carbonate. it can be very very dissapointing when you wait 10 months and the mead tastes wonderful but instead of having a sparkling champagne or ale like mead you have something thats either completely flat or worse...has just a very small amount tingle when you were looking for a big sparkle. its obvious that youve put alot of planning into this batch and are excited about it, i would just hate for it to be a big dissapointment for you.

 

[WikdWaze]

Believe me, I'm thinking about it constantly. I've seen lots of posts saying it's impossible to naturally carbonate a sweet mead, I take that as a challenge. Sometimes "knowing" something can't be done is a self-fulfilling prophecy. I'm going to try the technique I described, if it doesn't work, no great loss. I'll just have to invest in some kegging equipment then so I can carbonate.

 

[Jmattioli]

Believe me, I'm thinking about it constantly. I've seen lots of posts saying it's impossible to naturally carbonate a sweet mead, I take that as a challenge. Sometimes "knowing" something can't be done is a self-fulfilling prophecy. I'm going to try the technique I described, if it doesn't work, no great loss. I'll just have to invest in some kegging equipment then so I can carbonate.

Those posts are incorrect and your idea IS a workable possibility as long as you let it stop at its alcohol limit with your desired sweetness and then dilute it down as you indicated in your post so that it will restart fermentation and then stop back at the alcohol limit again naturally in the bottle. Your calculations of course will have to be precise or you will either have bottle bombs or insufficent carbonation. The other possiblity is that you may have to add more yeast at bottling time or it may not restart up as planned. Would I recommend you go that route for your first mead ???? My better judgement says absolutely not, especially since you are working with limited funds. But my intuition tells me that you might as well go for it cause.... well because its you-- and its the only way you are going to learn whether you are bordering on genius or bordering on insanity. : And I for one would like to find out. ;D
Joe (on the lighter side)

 

[JoeM]

i have to tell you guys, we've heard so much about this mythical braggot of WikdWaze's that i think we need to start up a charity called the "WikdWaze barnyard braggot fund" and send him enough money to make ten gallons of this stuff so he can send us each a bottle when he's done.

 

[Oskaar]

Insanity is the act of doing the same thing the same way and expecting different results.

Oskaar

 

[WikdWaze]

i have to tell you guys, we've heard so much about this mythical braggot of WikdWaze's that i think we need to start up a charity called the "WikdWaze barnyard braggot fund" and send him enough money to make ten gallons of this stuff so he can send us each a bottle when he's done.

Hey, I like that idea!! ;D

Quite unnecessary, though. Most of the ingredients and supplies are on order. I'll order the honey this week. A couple more jugs so I can do a split batch, the temperature controller for the freezer, and the yeast are all I really have left to get.

With two gallons to be mazed, I do plan to share some. I would really value the input from my fellow board members as to what I did wrong or right. Let's see, two gallons would be about 20 beer bottles, a few for me, a few for my family, I might be able to share a dozen bottles or so. Have to pull names out of a hat so as not to hurt any feelings by leaving somebody off the list.

Those posts are incorrect and your idea IS a workable possibility as long as you let it stop at its alcohol limit with your desired sweetness and then dilute it down as you indicated in your post so that it will restart fermentation and then stop back at the alcohol limit again naturally in the bottle. Your calculations of course will have to be precise or you will either have bottle bombs or insufficent carbonation. The other possiblity is that you may have to add more yeast at bottling time or it may not restart up as planned. Would I recommend you go that route for your first mead ? My better judgement says absolutely not, especially since you are working with limited funds. But my intuition tells me that you might as well go for it cause.... well because its you-- and its the only way you are going to learn whether you are bordering on genius or bordering on insanity. And I for one would like to find out.
Joe (on the lighter side)

;D If I didn't know better, I'd think you were saying I'm stubborn ;D

I'm not sure the difference between genius and insanity has ever been clearly defined.

The logic of the idea is sound, I guess we'll know in a few months whether it works in practice. I am concerned about the calculations. I'm fairly certain I'll end up under-carbed tis first attempt. Better to play it safe than have exploding bottles everywhere.

 

[Jmattioli]

Wlkdwaze wrote:

;DIf I didn't know better, I'd think you were saying I'm stubborn ;D

Stubborn? No. Just persistantly trying to make a better bicycle before you ever rode one. And after Oskaar's definition, I would say you could eliminate insanity and are most definitely bordering on genius. But---- can a genius make mead--- or just conceive it in his mind? Time will tell, and I for one am cheering for you. None I know has put more effort in research and thinking before making it as you have. I salute you.
Joe

 

[WikdWaze]

Wlkdwaze wrote:
Stubborn? No. Just persistantly trying to make a better bicycle before you ever rode one. And after Oskaar's definition, I would say you could eliminate insanity and are most definitely bordering on genius. But---- can a genius make mead--- or just conceive it in his mind? Time will tell, and I for one am cheering for you. None I know has put more effort in research and thinking before making it as you have. I salute you.
Joe

All the research is just a way to bide my time until I get everything together. If I had already had the ingredients, it would already be fermenting. Then I'd be researching and saying "Oops, shoulda done that instead".

I would like to thank everybody who has provided input, both positive and negative. Every suggestion has caused me to think things through from a different angle, to ponder things I had overlooked. Within 2 weeks or so it will be happily bubbling away in the freezer and I can commence developing my next recipe.

 

[Oskaar]

But the fact that some geniuses were
laughed at does not imply that all
who are laughed at are geniuses.
They laughed at Columbus, they laughed
at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright brothers.
But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown.
Carl Sagan

Great spirits have always encountered
violent opposition from mediocre minds.
Albert Einstein

Shaddup and pass the Ketchup!
Oskaar

 

[ScottS]

Hey Oscaar (and anyone else for that matter),

When you make these ultra-sweet (from my point of view) meads with FG at or above 1.040, how long do you age these things? And what is your typical FG? I'm just curious because in retrospect, my bias against meads that sweet comes from a raspberry melomel that is now just over a year old. If I can expect it to mellow further, perhaps my opinion will end up changing a bit.

 

[Oskaar]

They do take a long time.

Final gravity on my favorite so far (a cherry melomel) was 1.043. It was laying down for about four years. I kept tasting every six months and tweaking it to add flavor balance.

In the secondary I put some coriander, blood orange zest and two cloves (whole) in a separate bag. Also added more extrememly ripe cherries (King Sweet, Bing and Brooks)

I used oak chips (then cubes) twice along the way the first was for six weeks, the second was for four weeks. I used a light toast the first time, and a heavy toast the second time. Also added some acid blend in small amounts the last two rackings.

I'm about done with the last of this mel. Someone somewhere mentioned that they had a seven year old mead. My hat is off to anyone who can keep it that long. This lasted four, and that is the longest I've had any around. It's funny because I have bottled of Scotch that are 33 years old and some wines that are between 20 and 30 years old, but I can't keep mead very long.

I would say that the flavor of this melomel is very much like a good super ripe cherry followed by a Chambord flavor, with a hint of Gran Marnier and vanilla down the center with some caramel and spice on the sides.

Hope that helps,

Oskaar